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Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.

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  • Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.

    maybe we should've listened to Dirty..
    AF 99

    M-A-V-E-R-I-C-K-S, MAVERICKS, MAVERICKS, GOOOOO STATE!

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    • Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.

      Originally posted by SoCalSiouxFan View Post
      You referring to North Dakota as "Big Government"? LOL.
      Yep.

      UND had a decision based on a variety of complicated factors and made a specific decision. The govt has taken that decision away from them. Big government is not defined by the number of people it governs, but rather the number of decisions it takes away from society.

      Originally posted by Brenthoven View Post
      And some of us are saying that one tribe has approved the usage, and some of our own personal heritages are also being stereotyped (Irish, in my case), and bringing up the fact that it isn't a "racist" or "hostile and abusive" name except to a certain minority (compared to those who support it). Furthermore, the logo was designed by an Indian, and it is NOT a caricature (like the Cleveland Indians former logo), and UND does tons for the Indian population. How is that offensive.

      I don't see it as demeaning to NAs. But my opinion on the particular issue is irrelevent as it doesn't target me. A substantial representation of Sioux have come out saying its demeaning.

      If folks think the Irish are being abused...they should campaign to get Notre Dame's logo changed.

      American Universities have decided that there is significant collateral damage from such logos...and the NCAA just is carrying it out.
      Go Gophers!

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      • Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.

        Originally posted by Brenthoven View Post
        And some of us are saying that one tribe has approved the usage, and some of our own personal heritages are also being stereotyped (Irish, in my case), and bringing up the fact that it isn't a "racist" or "hostile and abusive" name except to a certain minority (compared to those who support it).
        It was truly an awful period in history when Ethiopia invaded and conquered Ireland then repressed them for 500 years. Just awful. Get it? Irish people participated gleefully in the rape and pillaging of the homelands of American aboriginals. Just like German, English, Dutch, Scottish, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, Greek etcetera did at various times. Native peoples have been demeaned, repressed and cast aside with prejudice for that entire 500 years. Your failure to recognize that history is no big surprise since nobody took the time to teach it to you. That however, doesn't mean it didn't happen. Cos, it did.

        Furthermore, the logo was designed by an Indian, and it is NOT a caricature (like the Cleveland Indians former logo), and UND does tons for the Indian population. How is that offensive.
        The Chippewa who designed that logo is no less a product of the propagandized history than you. His formal schooling did no more to teach him what really happened than did yours. Do you really think that his ethnic heritage makes him immune from being brainwashed by inaccurate histories written by the conquering hoard?

        The tons that they do for the Indian population can easily be enhanced through one simple and painless act. Eliminate the name and logo. What is harmed other than ego in that act? Who does ceasing it's use hurt?

        Knowing your "bit," you might be just doing this to stir the pot, I dunno. Either way, you are coming off just as ignorant as the white folk who fight these things, and/or the NCAA.
        Fortunately for you ... I'll be limiting my interaction with you on this board in the future (not that I already don't try to ignore drunken stupid twats). Thank your own quite limited cognition for that. There is nothing in what I've said here in this thread which can be construed as some "bit" which this deeply disingenuous and petty statement implies. I'm far from "ignorant".

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        • Originally posted by MavHockey14 View Post
          maybe we should've listened to Dirty..
          Ahem.

          warning, left wing liberal gone mad.
          AF 99

          M-A-V-E-R-I-C-K-S, MAVERICKS, MAVERICKS, GOOOOO STATE!

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          • Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.

            Originally posted by uaafanblog View Post
            It was truly an awful period in history when Ethiopia invaded and conquered Ireland then repressed them for 500 years. Just awful. Get it? Irish people participated gleefully in the rape and pillaging of the homelands of American aboriginals. Just like German, English, Dutch, Scottish, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, Greek etcetera did at various times. Native peoples have been demeaned, repressed and cast aside with prejudice for that entire 500 years. Your failure to recognize that history is no big surprise since nobody took the time to teach it to you. That however, doesn't mean it didn't happen. Cos, it did.


            The Chippewa who designed that logo is no less a product of the propagandized history than you. His formal schooling did no more to teach him what really happened than did yours. Do you really think that his ethnic heritage makes him immune from being brainwashed by inaccurate histories written by the conquering hoard?

            The tons that they do for the Indian population can easily be enhanced through one simple and painless act. Eliminate the name and logo. What is harmed other than ego in that act? Who does ceasing it's use hurt?


            Fortunately for you ... I'll be limiting my interaction with you on this board in the future (not that I already don't try to ignore drunken stupid twats). Thank your own quite limited cognition for that. There is nothing in what I've said here in this thread which can be construed as some "bit" which this deeply disingenuous and petty statement implies. I'm far from "ignorant".
            You are intelligent, don't get me wrong. But your black-n-white stance on this issue is ludicrous. Ridiculous. Ignore me? Fine. I don't care. I'll still speak my mind and my opinions. Ignorant? No. Fair? I believe yes. So keep stoking the fire. I will sit back and laugh.
            Never really developed a taste for tequila. Kind of hard to understand how you make a drink out of something that sharp, inhospitable. Now, bourbon is easy to understand.
            Tastes like a warm summer day. -Raylan Givens

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            • Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.

              Originally posted by MavHockey14 View Post
              Ahem.

              warning, left wing liberal gone mad.
              Thank you for entirely living up to exactly what I expected. Rather than address any issue raised or argued in this thread; you choose to resort to a wholly inaccurate label of my political leanings.

              As I mentioned earlier, you are incapable of participating in this discussion. My assumption that you're not an adult may be completely wrong however you've done nothing in this post to indicate otherwise. So ... go away and let adults exchange thoughts. Please "burd" ... come back.

              These political labels that you've been programmed to trot out in circumstances like this (a discussion where you reasoning abilities have been exceeded) are pathetic. Your usage of such a thing speaks volumes about your personal character and nothing about mine.

              Comment


              • Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.

                There is a funding issue here...otherwise govt dictating an organizations positioning in this manner would absolutely be an unconstitutional infringement on free speech.
                Go Gophers!

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                • Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.

                  Originally posted by 5mn_Major View Post
                  There is a funding issue here...otherwise govt dictating an organizations positioning in this manner would absolutely be an unconstitutional infringement on free speech.
                  UND chose to be part of this program (the NCAA). They can withdraw, if they want, and not be subject to the NCAA's sanction about "hostile and abusive" logos. However, IMO, the NCAA is a monopoly. And they, like the NFL in theory, and the MLB in law, are exempt. Too bad that if UND withdraws from the NCAA, they are more f*ed than now. Whoopdeedoo.
                  Never really developed a taste for tequila. Kind of hard to understand how you make a drink out of something that sharp, inhospitable. Now, bourbon is easy to understand.
                  Tastes like a warm summer day. -Raylan Givens

                  Comment


                  • Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.

                    Originally posted by MinnesotaNorthStar View Post
                    Why is naming a team the Irish, Spartans, or Trojans better than the Sioux, Seminoles, or Chippewa? Sounds racist to me.
                    How many Irish, Spartans, and Trojans petitioned the schools with those names to drop said names?

                    At least the Trojans have a loophole - they can just change the logo to a rubber.

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                    • Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.

                      Originally posted by Brenthoven View Post
                      However, IMO, the NCAA is a monopoly.
                      True, but it is a mirror of the University's wishes anyways (and they are not a monopoly).
                      Go Gophers!

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Bakunin View Post
                        How many Irish, Spartans, and Trojans petitioned the schools with those names to drop said names?

                        At least the Trojans have a loophole - they can just change the logo to a rubber.
                        How many Seminoles petitioned FSU? Yet, they were on the initial list...

                        White = OK
                        Indian = Not OK

                        Again, sounds racist.
                        Jordan Kawaguchi for Hobey!!
                        Originally posted by Quizmire
                        mns, this is why i love you.

                        Originally posted by Markt
                        MNS - forking genius.

                        Originally posted by asterisk hat
                        MNS - sometimes you gotta answer your true calling. I think yours is being a pimp.

                        Originally posted by hockeybando
                        I am a fan of MNS.

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                        • Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.

                          Originally posted by MinnesotaNorthStar View Post
                          White = OK
                          White people have been the ruling class in this country since its founding - pretty tough to be 'hostile and abusive' toward them with nicknames.

                          And the Irish? They're too drunk to care.

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                          • Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.

                            Originally posted by 5mn_Major View Post
                            There is a funding issue here...otherwise govt dictating an organizations positioning in this manner would absolutely be an unconstitutional infringement on free speech.
                            The "governement" isn't dictating anything here. The NCAA is. Big difference.
                            "The use of common sense and logic will not be tolerated and may result in fine and/or suspension."- Western Professional Hockey League By-laws. 1999-2000.

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                            • Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.

                              Originally posted by uaafanblog View Post
                              It is humorous to see those who claim righteousness defend their use of this nickname/logo by decrying analogous usage in other places.

                              "But Mommy, why do I have to clean my room? Billy across the street doesn't have to clean his!"

                              You folks here questioning and defending all this do realize that the probable majority of people in your state prefer that the nickname go away if for no other reason than to be done with the whole controversy? Isn't 5 or 6 years of this enough for you? Can you not learn to associate yourselves with some other symbology that isn't offensive to a group of people that had their lands stolen, culture nearly demolished and ancestors murdered by an invading force which disgustingly perverted their own religious beliefs to justify themselves?

                              Seriously, are your own personal identities that deeply tied to a college hockey teams name? You can survive this ... it is nothing more than a tiny slice removed from your spuriously adopted egos. Let it go. It's no more painful washing your hair in the shower.
                              I appreciate your post from a humanitarian and multicultural perspective and it spoke to my heart. You are right. I would add it takes a significant effort to uncover the authentic history (beyond the intrinsic selection bias within history textbooks) of Euro-American attitudes towards "Indians" as a malignant presence to be extirpated; and the well documented but obscure history of the perpetuity of government sponsored, systematic ethnocide and cultural genocide that virtually decimated Native American tribal culture over a half of millennium.

                              It's pretty clear from documented historical accounts not normally stocked on public school bookshelves, that the Christian influenced European expansionism agenda, under a perceived God ordained banner of manifest destiny, was responsible for the complete obliteration of entire tribes...men, women and children.

                              As an American, I've never been too proud of our historical human rights record towards particular ethnic immigrant people groups. But this historical holocaust was sadly without exception (true historical accounts of brutality towards Mexicans run a close second), the most infamous example of wholesale racism and premeditated annihilation of an aboriginal people group under the spurious guise of Christian values in the history of this country.

                              I recall reading shocking quotes like this from the 26th President of the United States, Teddy Roosevelt:

                              "I suppose I should be ashamed to say that I take the Western view of the Indian. I don't go so far as to think that the only good Indians are dead Indians, but I believe nine out of every ten are, and I shouldn't like to inquire too closely into the case of the tenth. The most vicious cowboy has more moral principle than the average Indian. Turn three hundred low families of New York into New Jersey, support them for fifty years in vicious idleness, and you will have some idea of what the Indians are. Reckless, revengeful, fiendishly cruel, they rob and murder, not the cowboys, who can take care of themselves, but the defenseless, lone settlers on the plains." -Teddy Roosevelt, New York, January 1886 (five years before becoming President).
                              Or this one by Congressman James M. Cavanaugh of Montana in 1868, who reiterated without rebuke from the floor of the House of Representatives perhaps the most infamous and widely held racial slur ever uttered in the United States Congress:

                              "I have never in my life seen a good Indian (and I have seen thousands) except when I have seen a dead Indian. I believe in the Indian policy pursued by New England in years long gone. I believe in the Indian policy which was taught by the great chieftain of Massachusetts, Miles Standish. I believe in the policy that exterminates the Indians, drives them outside the boundaries of civilization, because you cannot civilize them".
                              As time passed treaties were made, but regularly broken, frequently altered or completely ignored. The federal and state governments often re-acquired land designated for reservations if it was found that the land held significant economic value. So goes the historical and ongoing plight of Native Americans, whose multiethnic distinctives and sociocultural diversity has been typically castrated under the dominant culture's covert racist term, "Indians".

                              In my view, if a Native American tribe believes that stereotyping is an issue with a sports moniker, as much as I like the look of Sioux logo, name, jersey, we must let it go and give them the constitutional honor that is rightfully theirs as Americans to take whatever steps they feel are necessary to reconstruct their social identity. While I'm sure there are historical examples of brutality at the hands of Native American people against Euro-Americans, I am saddened by the extant atrocities that rivet our great history as a nation.

                              Let's not allow sports entertainment to blind us in myopic shortsightedness when we can at least do something, however small in retrospect, to redeem and mend historical injustices perpetrated towards a virtually disenfranchised people group that is seeking at the very most a voice and little dignity. In the end I believe this will be a win-win situation.
                              Last edited by HarleyMC; 04-18-2011, 11:29 AM.

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                              • Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.

                                Originally posted by davyd83 View Post
                                The "governement" isn't dictating anything here. The NCAA is. Big difference.
                                Not even close. The settlement for UND was whether to drop the logo or keep the logo and have it not to use it during the postseason (without any further ramifications). UND decided the former.

                                The government has determined that the University does not have freewill in this case...and dictated the outcome for the University. UND opposes this government intervention (GFH, 3/1/11)...and now the government is trying stifle dissent by removing UND's leadership.

                                Big government is doing what the NCAA could never do.
                                Go Gophers!

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