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amherstblackbear
03-13-2011, 12:33 PM
I challenge you to name these "pretty good" Mainers that went on to other D1 schools. Besides Greg Moore and Matt Duffy, who were "pretty good", there isn't another kid that has come out of this state since Eric Weinrich to be drafted out of high school in the 2nd round and been as highly-touted as Dumoulin. Some above posters referenced to Billet, who as a goalie, is one of very few from Maine to play D1 hockey.

I don't feel like arguing with you, so here's a half-hearted effort. Kids are committing younger than ever, and I don't pretend to know everything going on in all of their heads. Recruiting has become a lot more competitive since Walsh's heyday in the late 80s. Between fighting other NCAA programs for recruits and fending off Canadian juniors, nobody gets everyone they want. Witness the Minnesota threads calling for the resignation of the great Don Lucia. Don't tell me Walsh this or Walsh that, or X player absolutely would have worn a Maine jersey. Those trends are larger than Walsh, and to ignore them makes you look like someone stuck in time.

In other words, don't make it easier for Whitehead's apologists to dismiss criticism. There are perfectly reasonable arguments that can be made. And I agree completely that, in general, Maine would be more successful at recruiting in-state talent if they were more successful.

$.02

Carmine Scarpaglia
03-13-2011, 12:52 PM
The point is: there's a middle ground between racking up the most frozen four appearances of any D-1 team (along with BC) and falling to complete irrelevance.

I see what you're saying but... Maine finished 5th in a 10 team league and with their sweep of North Dakota sat on the NCAA bubble through the season into this weekend. That is not acceptable middle ground. You guys want home ice and the NCAAs. I understand that. But is home ice, a semi loss in the Garden and a 1 and done in the NCAAs much better? And if not, then really what's being asked for is HE titles and FFs. No?

rufus
03-13-2011, 12:53 PM
Another good example... the LSSU logo is an anchor. Well, it doesn't take a genius to figure out you're plunging deep into the abyss like an anchor so you need think about incorporating the anchor into it as well. Maybe have a ship with Whitehead at the wheel and a blackbear hanging onto the anchor down at the bottom of the ocean.


I like this!!

Take the Maine 'M' logo, tilt it sideways at like 45 degrees, and have a chain hanging off the foot of the 'M' with the LSSU anchor hanging down from it.

Something similar to this, but you know, done by a professional.

http://i234.***********.com/albums/ee159/rufus21_photos/Blank20T-shirtcopy.jpg

Maybe have something like this on the front, and the 'Save Maine hockey-fire Whitehead' writen across the back.

rufus
03-13-2011, 12:56 PM
Exactly, there's a WHOLE LOT of middle ground between where our program was in the 90's and where it is now. None of us are naive or unrealistic enough to expect lightning to strike twice in the same spot, but right now we are headed for the bottom of our league and fast, and the direction has to change.

Right. If Lowell and PC hire the right guys, it's very possible that we could end up being the team with the worst head coach in the league. And now we're talking about being back in the Semler years.

carltonbarrett
03-13-2011, 01:05 PM
I see what you're saying but... Maine finished 5th in a 10 team league and with their sweep of North Dakota sat on the NCAA bubble through the season into this weekend. That is not acceptable middle ground. You guys want home ice and the NCAAs. I understand that. But is home ice, a semi loss in the Garden and a 1 and done in the NCAAs much better? And if not, then really what's being asked for is HE titles and FFs. No?


Exactly. Lets face it, after the success you had in the 90's and to some extent the early 2000's, few Maine fans are going to be happy getting to the HE semi's every other year and an occasional one and done in the NCAA's; but it my estimation, that's exactly what you're looking at going forward (at best)...

carltonbarrett
03-13-2011, 01:05 PM
Oops!

rufus
03-13-2011, 01:05 PM
I see what you're saying but... Maine finished 5th in a 10 team league and with their sweep of North Dakota sat on the NCAA bubble through the season into this weekend. That is not acceptable middle ground. You guys want home ice and the NCAAs. I understand that. But is home ice, a semi loss in the Garden and a 1 and done in the NCAAs much better? And if not, then really what's being asked for is HE titles and FFs. No?

If this current Maine squad can sweep North Dakota, beat BC, give BC all they had in the HE title game, then there's no way possible that any NCAA appearance will necessarily be a one and done. If this team can do those things, with the coach they have, imagine what it could do with someone like Dennehy behind the bench? Or Nate Leamon. You just gotta find that up and coming assistant who can put together a program like these guys have, like Shawn Walsh did.

You telling me it's easier to recruit talent to Merrimack than it is to Maine? If Maine keeps missing the NCAAs, and Merrimack continues the way they are, it might be, but it shouldn't be right now. But you need to have a coach who can get the most out of that talent.

Maybe I'm way off here, but outside of goaltending, anyone here think this years team was any less talented, or much less talented than the 1995 team? Or the 1999 team?

acs64
03-13-2011, 01:07 PM
I see what you're saying but... Maine finished 5th in a 10 team league and with their sweep of North Dakota sat on the NCAA bubble through the season into this weekend. That is not acceptable middle ground. You guys want home ice and the NCAAs. I understand that. But is home ice, a semi loss in the Garden and a 1 and done in the NCAAs much better? And if not, then really what's being asked for is HE titles and FFs. No?

You speak as if home ice, a semi loss in the Garden and a 1 and done in the NCAA's are absolutes. Well, they're not. Given Maine's success in the NCAA's (even under Timmay, granted with Walsh's recruits) there's no reason to believe that FF's shouldnt be expected. Afterall, we're not talking about hiring a Umile here. :D With Maine's tradition, fans and facilities in place (at least for the time being), there's no reason imo that a dynamic coach (even less so than Walsh) couldnt bring back the brand of hockey we are used to seeing and expecting.

carltonbarrett
03-13-2011, 01:15 PM
If this current Maine squad can sweep North Dakota, beat BC, give BC all they had in the HE title game, then there's no way possible that any NCAA appearance will necessarily be a one and done. If this team can do those things, with the coach they have, imagine what it could do with someone like Dennehy behind the bench? Or Nate Leamon. You just gotta find that up and coming assistant who can put together a program like these guys have, like Shawn Walsh did.

You telling me it's easier to recruit talent to Merrimack than it is to Maine? If Maine keeps missing the NCAAs, and Merrimack continues the way they are, it might be, but it shouldn't be right now. But you need to have a coach who can get the most out of that talent.

Maybe I'm way off here, but outside of goaltending, anyone here think this years team was any less talented, or much less talented than the 1995 team? Or the 1999 team?

You beat BC & UND at home, the Walsh Maine teams could beat anyone anywhere, big difference! As far as recruiting vs MC, a lot of kids just don't want to play that far away from a metropolitan area. Furthermore, I wouldn't say Dennehy has exactly built a dynasty over at MC, more like one good year with lots of upper classmen, with a likely big drop off coming next year - happens quite a bit with the UML's & UVM's of the world.

Carmine Scarpaglia
03-13-2011, 01:20 PM
It's a solid point because as we've seen with Maine under Whitehead towards the last part of his FF runs, Maine was placed in some of the most absurdly terrible regionals ever created by the NCAA with powerhouses like Harvard, SCSU, Clarskon and UMass in their regionals.

But... at the same time, you're making my point about Frozen Fours. I think that "middle ground" is a lot smaller than most people probably think it is in their mind. Additionally, I think there is an overstating of the (dying) tradition, fans, and facilities that Maine has in place. It's not a huge distinguishing point. UNH has a whole state following them as well as UVM. BU and NU have rabid followings on campus as the only show in town for their school. And somehow BC leads the league in attendance playing 3rd fiddle to hoops and fb. Go figure. Facilities... BC and BU are clearly better. As is UNH. Tradition... losing relevance quickly and probably one of the lower priorities on a recruit's list IMO.

Just trying to have a reasonable discussion here. Not trying to stir the pot honestly...

acs64
03-13-2011, 01:21 PM
you beat bc & und at home, the walsh maine teams could beat anyone anywhere some of the time, but not always! As far as recruiting vs mc, a lot of kids would just as soon play away from the rat races of metropolitan area. Furthermore, i wouldn't say dennehy has exactly built a dynasty over at mc, more like one good year with lots of upper classmen, with a likely big drop off coming next year - happens quite a bit with the uml's & uvm's of the world.

fyp

amherstblackbear
03-13-2011, 01:24 PM
I see what you're saying but... Maine finished 5th in a 10 team league and with their sweep of North Dakota sat on the NCAA bubble through the season into this weekend. That is not acceptable middle ground. You guys want home ice and the NCAAs. I understand that. But is home ice, a semi loss in the Garden and a 1 and done in the NCAAs much better? And if not, then really what's being asked for is HE titles and FFs. No?

Not really. Again, I don't care about the HEA tournament. I really don't. I mean . . . if you have a respectable season, you're probably going to end up at home in the quarters, and playing at home, you're going to get to the semis with reasonable success, but that's not really what it's about.

As for the NCAAs, I have to dispute the premise. The great thing about the NCAAs is that it really is wide open. If you draw one of Jerry York's recent teams, then yeah, it's safe to assume an NCAA appearance would be one and done. But thankfully BC only plays one first round game. :)

Some years that will happen, and the NCAA run will be over quickly. But some years you don't get the draw of death, and you get a chance for an enjoyable run - like the year when Maine was eliminated in the FF by Michigan State.

eta: You're being a bit melodramatic about absurdly terrible regionals. The Maine team that made it through that absurdly terrible regional lost to MSU by one goal less than BC did. The reality is that there are a few teams that you absolutely don't want to see in the first round. Some years you do, some you don't (unless you *are* that team, but we both agree that those days are over for Maine). But outside of those, the NCAA tournament is usually pretty open.

Onion Man
03-13-2011, 01:27 PM
I started losing faith when one of the best "in-state" recruits to come along in ten years chose a MASSACHUSETTS rival over Orono. If Walsh was still with us and behind the bench, I can guarantee that Dumoulin would've come to Maine along with many other top-notch guys. I can't blame him for wanting to play for Jerry York over Whitehead.

I'm not so sure about that. Walsh was never won who really looked at in-state kids

carltonbarrett
03-13-2011, 01:30 PM
fyp

Not suggesting that everyone wants to live in a concrete jungle like BU or NU, but a lot of recruits have stated that part of the allure of BC is the area in general. Lets face it, there's a million and one things to do in Boston, whether it's sporting events, concerts, museums, fine dining, shopping, Harvard Square, the North End, various conventions, etc, etc and even for a school like UNH, Boston is an easy day trip away. Been to Orono/Bangor many times, and unless you are an outdoorsman type, just not a lot going on off campus up that way.

acs64
03-13-2011, 01:32 PM
The ultimate point here is that under the given conditions, Maine hawkey wont improve and its not where the fans want it to be. Might be okay for a UML or a PC right now, but not okay for the state of Maine. The only answer is a change at the top...not a continued long drawn out drag through the mud as we're witnessing. If change happens quick enough, its a blip in the road when viewed in a mirror 10 years from now. If not, if anyone is left here in 10 years, its the same discussion over and over and over and over and over again.

carltonbarrett
03-13-2011, 01:33 PM
I'm not so sure about that. Walsh was never won who really looked at in-state kids

By far, his bread and butter players were Canadian, with the occasional MA or NY kid thrown in there as well.

acs64
03-13-2011, 01:39 PM
Not suggesting that everyone wants to live in a concrete jungle like BU or NU or within a fenced in barrier like BC, but a lot of recruits have stated that part of the allure of Boston is the area in general, although thats not for everyone, for sure. Lets face it, there are more city type things to do in Boston, whether it's going to the opera, overpriced sporting events, concerts (which you can see anywhere), museums (yawn), fine expensive dining, shopping (hooorah), Harvard Square, the North End once is enough), various pyscho conventions, etc, etc and even for a school like UNH, Boston is an easy day trip away. Been to Orono/Bangor many times, and unless you are an outdoorsman type, just not a lot going on off campus up that way, but given that hawkey is essentially a canadian bred sport where the great outdoors is part of their culture, its no wonder why so many like the stress free life and uncongested proximity to the coast.

fyp again:D

amherstblackbear
03-13-2011, 01:39 PM
By far, his bread and butter players were Canadian, with the occasional MA or NY kid thrown in there as well.

Right. And how many teams are recruiting the BCHL these days?

Whatever the future of Maine hockey is, it's best to leave Walsh out of the discussion. The 80s aren't coming back. The question is whether it's reasonable even to aspire to more than what Maine has right now (given that program shakeups don't come with guarantees).

I kind of think it's at least worth a shot. What's the worst that could happen? Maine could keep missing the NCAAs, occasionally miss the HEA tournament, or flame out like this year? I think you see my point. :)

acs64
03-13-2011, 01:43 PM
I'm not so sure about that. Walsh was never won who really looked at in-state kids

Hmmm, musta been Walshys twin brother then who made it a point to ask me about a defensemen who wuz playing for Winslow High School at the time who had "near D1" potential.....seemed unusal to me at the time that he would even know about this kid, and even moreso that he would ask my opinion about him.

walrus
03-13-2011, 01:44 PM
The worst thing that can happen is things stay the same, either Tim has to go or assts have to go. The status quo continues the skid toward the bottom. I see nothing changing and thats a shame