PDA

View Full Version : Maine Off Season 2011



Pages : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 [15] 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51

dmjossel
03-15-2011, 11:14 PM
in other words you already know it all, so there is really no point in telling you anything.

That's hilarious from a guy whose nickname is KnowItAll. I notice how you don't actually respond to anything I've written at all, you've just dismissed it with a wave of the hand, and brought up a lot of unrelated things. Maybe a more appropriate nick would be the Great Karnak-- knows all, says nothing?


you are not able to learn... I am sure this is not the first time anyone has ever told you that.... in about 30 or so years, I bet you will come to understand that

Not able to learn what? In 30 years? I think I'd better start learning now, because in 30 years I'll most likely be retired, if not senile, so it might well be too late by then.

I'm willing to learn if you're willing to teach. I wouldn't mind seeing some credentials, though, before we start.

Fishman'81
03-16-2011, 12:25 AM
Guys,this is the crux of the matter,IMO:

A.)Tim (as opposed to the hockey coach at a private school) is a de-facto employee of the State of Maine's taxpayers.

B.)Apparently,a majority of his bosses consider him to be doing a poor job...

C.)Therefore,they think he should be dismissed.


Pretty simple stuff,really.

dmjossel
03-16-2011, 01:02 AM
I said quite a bit and you ignored everything I said.
you do not understand why a team has boosters, you do not understand why a team's fan base is willing to pay a lot for a ticket... I tried saying things, assuming that because you are able to write, that you might be able to infer, but you are not... you are either daft or need things spelled out for you... I am not pis5ing in this "contest"... as I said, you already know it all...

Ticket prices and booster clubs weren't really the topic of the conversation, though. The topic was judging the performance of the on-ice product, with an eye to evaluating the team's coach, in terms of how credit or fault is apportioned, and whether absolute or relative measures of performance are more appropriate. None of which have anything to do with your assertions, which amounted to "season tickets are expensive" and "Maine has more fans than Merrimack". Neither of those are relevant.


and apparently Kazakhstan does not have irony or you might have understood, without a need to comment on the "knowitall thing"

Kazakhstan may not have had any native irony, which is why I made sure to pack some. Copper, uranium, titanium, oil and gas... no, not so much irony.


last.... a wise person can learn from anyone.. credentials or none... (that said, i have a hell of a lot more credentials and degrees than English at Merrimack and Journalism at Syracuse... those get you the "right" to ask if I "would like fries with that"... but I do not go by my credentials, I stand by what I wrote... that there is no point in telling you anything)

It's very convenient that alleging that there's no point in telling me anything absolves you from the responsibility of telling me anything. It's doubly convenient that you haven't actually told me anything except that Maine season tickets are expensive, and they have a lot of fans. I think everyone here already knew those two things; I probably learned them a long time ago, during a visit to Alfond.

It's triply convenient that you research some of my credentials, while casting aspersions on them which are without basis in fact; I haven't worked in any service industry since before graduation, and never in food service-- which is meant as no offense to any who have or do. I think it would be ignorant and ill-mannered to suggest that someone engaged in such work could not be a good fan of hockey or a student of the game, capable of rendering an informed opinion about whether someone's performance as coach is adequate or not.

I will also stand by what I wrote, which boils down to:

1) Calls for Whitehead to be removed are less justified than calls for MacDonald or Army, but more valid than calls to remove Parker

2) An evaluation that assigns credit for all success to the players, assistant coaches, and previous head and assistant coaches while assigning all blame to Whitehead is not a fair and objective evaluation, no matter how many boosters make it, nor how many aggregate dollars they pay for their season tickets.

3) While replacing Whitehead may be justified, the attitude that his performance to date is somehow unacceptably poor for Maine specifically is a scurrilous and backhanded attempt to denigrate other institutions in the league, and an indication that Maine's past success has made a few of their fans jaded and entitled, which endears them to no one.

Want fries with that? I could use some, it's almost lunchtime...

dmjossel
03-16-2011, 01:10 AM
B.)Apparently,a majority of his bosses consider him to be doing a poor job...


I suppose that could be true, but I'd tend to consider this particular forum, at least, to be a vocal minority, and not a majority of the citizens of Maine, most of which I'd suspect probably aren't even aware of the issue, much less have an opinion on it.

I could easily be wrong about that, but I suppose that begs the question of why, if the situation is so clear and obvious, the University is not aware of it and not yet been compelled to act?

I'm honestly not defending the guy-- more the idea that a coach with his record needs to be fired because he's the only obstacle standing in the way of a supposedly superior team, which I think is false. The quickest way to prove it, I guess, would for Maine to replace Whitehead, as soon as practical, and then see how long it takes for results to improve significantly. I'm guessing it's no less than a full recruiting cycle, perhaps more. I think it's doubly hard for Maine, not because they are so bad, but because they are so good. If you only win a few games and miss the playoffs, then just about anything positive that happens is marked improvement. In this case, the Black Bears missed home ice by two points and failed to advance, but I get the sense that winning home ice and advancing to the Garden wouldn't satisfy many of those who want Whitehead replaced. I've read some comments that indicate that even league championships or frozen four appearances alone wouldn't redeem him.

What realistic performance goals would be set for a replacement within the next 4-6 seasons? If such a replacement failed to meet those goals, should they also be terminated?

If Whitehead achieved those goals, would fans change their opinion about him, or not?

KnowItAll
03-16-2011, 01:15 AM
It's very convenient that alleging that there's no point in telling me anything absolves you from the responsibility of telling me anything. It's doubly convenient that you haven't actually told me anything except that Maine season tickets are expensive, and they have a lot of fans. ...

I will spell it out for you in terms related to one of your trolling posts.
YES, we do expect and were promised better than what we have seen
We, unlike you, know what a coach can bring to the table, and we know that when certain things happen, it is the coach's fault, and nobody elses. (certain things)

He begs for cash to go out and recruit the best, to give the people of Maine a championship calibre team (go look at the website, and then look at Northeastern's and merrimack's... do you see any "promises"

Dennehy approached me for a lot of cashola... sponsor a jersey, sponsor a seatback, be a member of this and that... "because I am building a contender"

Tim made those claims, Mark made those claims...
do you really not get that?

as for not working in a service position... I know... "freelance consultant" means that you are not even asking if I would like fries... but you live only blocks from McDonald's and I know that Shawsheen Sunoco is hiring.

see, Zippy, not only do I know college hockey, I KNOW IT ALL

Fishman'81
03-16-2011, 01:45 AM
[QUOTE=dmjossel;5083680]I suppose that could be true, but I'd tend to consider this particular forum, at least, to be a vocal minority, and not a majority of the citizens of Maine, most of which I'd suspect probably aren't even aware of the issue, much less have an opinion on it. [QUOTE}

Jeez,ya think..?And all this time I've been thinking that nary a citizen of The Pine Tree State had slept a wink since Saturday night,even the sweet little babies! :rolleyes:

Kindly leave us soon.Your posts on this thread are verbose,dull,beside the point and transparent in their intent.(Yeah,some of us have bitten anyway...Our bad.)If you are a an MC fan,why not post there,and back-slap a while with like-minded guys who are enjoying a truly exceptional season in North Andover?

I'm definitely gonna root for The Mack in the NCAAs-I'd truly love to see them win it all-but I won't be reading or posting on their thread.(Little hint there.)

See you next year,if at all,please?

dmjossel
03-16-2011, 02:43 AM
I will spell it out for you in terms related to one of your trolling posts.

I'm not trolling. I'm saying that a lot of the conclusions that Whitehead definitely should go (and I'm actually not suggesting he shouldn't) are based on flawed evaluations and false premises, that's all. I don't have a stake in who Maine has as their coach, my interest was only in the process, not the result-- a discussion of how decisions like this are and should be made. Your only response has been that the decision is obvious and that you know it all, which is not particularly interesting or enlightening-- just rude.


YES, we do expect and were promised better than what we have seen
We, unlike you, know what a coach can bring to the table, and we know that when certain things happen, it is the coach's fault, and nobody elses. (certain things)

He begs for cash to go out and recruit the best, to give the people of Maine a championship calibre team (go look at the website, and then look at Northeastern's and merrimack's... do you see any "promises"

Dennehy approached me for a lot of cashola... sponsor a jersey, sponsor a seatback, be a member of this and that... "because I am building a contender"

Tim made those claims, Mark made those claims...
do you really not get that?

All coaches make those claims. It is their job to make those claims, and then do their best to make good on those claims. Sometimes they get the things they need to accomplish those goals, and sometimes they don't. Sometimes they are able to achieve the goals-- with or without resources-- and sometimes not. Sometimes they achieve the goals only partially. My only point has been that in the case of Maine, right now, those goals have admittedly not been fully achieved, but neither have the results been as poor as made out, and the apportioning of credit and blame for those results has been distributed in such a way that indicate many have judged the coach in a manner separate from the results themselves.

As for Coach Dennehy-- if he had to exchange as many words with you as I have within this thread, on behalf of the alumni I regret it. I certainly hope it was worth it for him.


as for not working in a service position... I know... "freelance consultant" means that you are not even asking if I would like fries... but you live only blocks from McDonald's and I know that Shawsheen Sunoco is hiring.

see, Zippy, not only do I know college hockey, I KNOW IT ALL

You don't know much. I don't live at the address you refer to, and haven't for over a decade, or do you think that McDonald's and Sunoco are now open in Kazakhstan? Your other information is no more current or accurate, but hey-- why should your little escapade of sleuthery about me turn out to be any more useful or relevant than anything else you've written?


Jeez,ya think..?And all this time I've been thinking that nary a citizen of The Pine Tree State had slept a wink since Saturday night,even the sweet little babies! :rolleyes:

Why did you say it then? You were the one who said that a "majority" of his bosses wanted him fired, then you admit that's not the case.


Kindly leave us soon.

Okay.


Your posts on this thread are verbose,

Guilty as charged. While I admit that brevity is the soul of wit, I often find that it's better to write a bit more and be sure no one misunderstands than to use shorthand. It seems this as failed me here, as I've been perceived as a troll with some secret unknowable agenda, and that isn't the case at all.


dull,

My apologies.


beside the point

I'd have to take exception, as a good deal of the discussion in many Maine-related threads this season has been criticism and defense of their coach. It's a shame that not having a position on the issue myself, but rather a passing interest in how people make up their minds, has labeled me as, at best, a defender of a derided public employee, or, at worst, a troll. Oh well.


and transparent in their intent.(Yeah,some of us have bitten anyway...Our bad.)

Mind telling me? I'm honestly not interested in trolling. I've said nothing particularly offensive about any poster here, or about anyone's school, or even about those who feel I am questioning their obvious conclusion that Whitehead be fired-- as I mentioned, I don't necessarily think that's wrong, I just think that some of the ways people arrived at that conclusion are somewhat curious, and may skew their expectations for what comes afterward, and not for the better. To be lumped in with those who start threads like "Why isn't Union #1" and denigrations of the "EZAC" I think is a bit uncharitable, no?


If you are a an MC fan,why not post there,and back-slap a while with like-minded guys who are enjoying a truly exceptional season in North Andover?

I am, I do, and I have.


I'm definitely gonna root for The Mack in the NCAAs-I'd truly love to see them win it all-

Thanks! Much appreciated. I do think the Warriors' success this year is a pretty compelling story. That it comes at the expense of other fans' expectations for their programs is the nature of the game, but I would have hoped that being revealed as a supporter of one program isn't automatically indicative of having some shadowy agenda against the fans of another.


but I won't be reading or posting on their thread.(Little hint there.)

Plenty of fans both read and post in season threads of other programs. I realize that a lot of that which does go on is trolling, but that is sincerely not my intent at all. If that's the only way it can or will be perceived, then I won't post further on this topic-- I doubt there's any more for me to say on it, and it's unfortunate that there was really very little reasoned response to my question about how Maine fans evaluate their coach's performance, but perhaps that's simply to be expected so soon after the season's end.


See you next year,if at all,please?

Agreed. Thanks for being civil, much appreciated.

Ma#1ne Hky
03-16-2011, 03:15 AM
Check out the BDNews Sports section TODAY....boy did Mahoney throw Whitehead under the Bus.....YA RIGHT...Mahoney missed it again...but thats his M.O. on UM Hockey...say a little to get alot of Story's......B.S. imo

Fishman'81
03-16-2011, 03:23 AM
Really..?

I thought it was the most balls-out article Larry has ever written.I commend him for publically taking a stand.

MEbear
03-16-2011, 05:08 AM
The problem I have with Larry's article is right in the headline. It's not time for Whitehead to silence his critics, it WAS time for Whitehead to silence his critics and he failed miserably because there are more now than ever before. If he is to silence his critics, he would have to build a winning team, and that would require at least another season or two with him behind the Maine bench, something Maine Hockey cannot afford!

For every year he stays, there is a lot more financial damage being done to the University and credibility damage being done to the hockey program than what his salary amounts to. The University can't afford to NOT buy him out, and the sooner the better if anyone in Orono wants to keep our ONE nationally prominent sports program. Once this program is torn down, the likelihood of us ever having another such program is nil.

walrus
03-16-2011, 07:42 AM
Personally I liked the article. He pointed out what a lot of us have been saying and now its out in the open for more folks to see, read and ponder. I never thought he'd bring up the fire timmay handout or the fact the Blake James is freakin' idiot for extending Tim for 3 years.

lewylew
03-16-2011, 08:08 AM
Thanks for pointing out the article. It brings up the topic, but fails because he claims that Whitehead needs to prove his detractors wrong, but IMO he has had this opportunity and failed. Of course no one cares about the program more than him......he makes a hefty $$$$6-figure salary to do so. If he didn't get paid he would be in the back of a line of many die-hard supporters for this program.Unfortunately, he probably will be behind the bench for a another season or two before the "Powers-that-be" pull their heads out the sand and fire him.

rufus
03-16-2011, 10:36 AM
The only way he could prove his detractors wronmg at this point would be to wildly exceed expectations in the next two seasons. Looks to be rebuilding time again, with lots more excuses of "we're young", "we need to gain experience", "if only Nyquist hadn't left", etc. If the next two seasons he takes a young, inexperienced team back to the Garden, and makes the NCAA tourney, it may go a long way toward dispelling the opinion that he's just not a very good coach.

But I have a feeling we're gonna be seeing more seasons much like the last few. A lot of blown leads, a lot of uninspiring play, with a few impressive performances here and there, leaving you to wonder why they can't play that way more often. And a middle of the pack HE finish, couple with quarterfinal series losses on the road.

BoSox3066
03-16-2011, 11:07 AM
God help Timmy if he ever tries to use Gus leaving as an excuse. You cannot bank on 4 years of that guy if you have half a brain; he was lucky to get 3 and look what ue did with him, big fat zilch. Like I said nice article but a year too late. Larry's right and fair...some will never like Tim because he's not SW. He got unfair criticism early on because of it. But fact is his season to silence doubters was his 2010-11 class and he did not. There's literally nothing he can do to convince me he's the man for the job; things are still raw but this season was that bad, IMHO.

acs64
03-16-2011, 11:48 AM
The only way he could prove his detractors wronmg at this point would be to wildly exceed expectations in the next two seasons. Looks to be rebuilding time again, with lots more excuses of "we're young", "we need to gain experience", "if only Nyquist hadn't left", etc. If the next two seasons he takes a young, inexperienced team back to the Garden, and makes the NCAA tourney, it may go a long way toward dispelling the opinion that he's just not a very good coach.

But I have a feeling we're gonna be seeing more seasons much like the last few. A lot of blown leads, a lot of uninspiring play, with a few impressive performances here and there, leaving you to wonder why they can't play that way more often. And a middle of the pack HE finish, couple with quarterfinal series losses on the road.

He has simply turned UMaine into the UML of old. Middle to bottom of the pack team year in and year out. That might be acceptable to some, but it sure as hell isnt acceptable as far as I'm concerned.

I like the article too...at least Big Lar is beginning to step over that line which he is so scared of. Tell it like it really is Larry....its the only way. Remember, the truth is out there...but we need to have it heard by the masses.

walrus
03-16-2011, 11:58 AM
But I have a feeling we're gonna be seeing more seasons much like the last few. A lot of blown leads, a lot of uninspiring play, with a few impressive performances here and there, leaving you to wonder why they can't play that way more often. And a middle of the pack HE finish, couple with quarterfinal series losses on the road.
How can this not happen, whats going to change so that it doesn't happen? A goalie coach could go along way to making the team better, but is it going to happen? Something has to change with the retreating defense, again, who is going to change that?

walrus
03-16-2011, 12:00 PM
He has simply turned UMaine into the UML of old. Middle to bottom of the pack team year in and year out. That might be acceptable to some, but it sure as hell isnt acceptable as far as I'm concerned.s.

Did they play D like Maine does now, I don't believe so I think they were at least physical to some degree.

rufus
03-16-2011, 12:37 PM
Did they play D like Maine does now, I don't believe so I think they were at least physical to some degree.

Yes, but they changed the rules on obstruction and interference since then, so now TIMMAY has them play like this because we don't want to take penalties now, do we?

It's funny, cause it seems like they take plenty of penalties hitting guys who don't even have the puck, or hitting and scrumming after the whistle, or boarding and hitting from behind in the offensive zone, but we just can't have them taking down or holding guys who have the puck on their stick in the slot, five feet from the goal, or breaking in alone on the goaltender. That's just unacceptable.

BoSox3066
03-16-2011, 04:15 PM
Hockey East Awards: Best defnesive forward : Tanner House; Len Ceglarski Sportsmanship Award: Brian Flynn; And Jeff Dimmen got something I don't recognize. Turner Athletics Award for tenacity and innovation. Also, Dan Sullivan was Hockey East All-Rookie team G.

KnowItAll
03-16-2011, 05:09 PM
Yes, but they changed the rules on obstruction and interference since then, so now TIMMAY has them play like this because we don't want to take penalties now, do we?

It's funny, cause it seems like they take plenty of penalties hitting guys who don't even have the puck, or hitting and scrumming after the whistle, or boarding and hitting from behind in the offensive zone, but we just can't have them taking down or holding guys who have the puck on their stick in the slot, five feet from the goal, or breaking in alone on the goaltender. That's just unacceptable.

rufus, can I please buy you a beer sometime?
you and I think SO much alike in so many ways!!!

although we have slightly different opinions on Bellamy, Damon, and the butterfly twins....SLIGHTLY

I have NO IDEA how Tim does not understand what a "good" penalty is... Duffy used to clear out the crease (NOT GET CALLED) and get benched.