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View Full Version : Maine Black Bears, 2010-2011, Redemption or FORE, I say......



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dmjossel
02-20-2011, 11:12 PM
Go for it! It would be very wise though, I think, to forewarn one of the players of what is coming. The players should understand beforehand that the fanz beef is not with the players, but with Whiteheads performance only. They should understand that the fanz are 110% behind the players and their on ice work and that this show of unity is because this home series is the last good opportunity for you guyz to be heard in a public forum. Be heard, make it professional but make sure the players know what is going on. Whether they share that information with their coach ahead of time is strictly up to them.

Is it really possible to split hairs like this? Isn't one of the knocks on Whitehead that he couldn't (or rather didn't) keep Grant Standbrook in the fold, weakening the program in an area it had previously been quite strong on: recruitment? Isn't that another way of saying that the players who go to Maine now aren't quite as good (or, in some cases, not nearly as good as) the players who used to be on the team?

If the team was capable of winning, but being held back by the coach, wouldn't they just stop listening to him? Does Maine really have players much better than the ones in the lineup who are sitting because Timmy has benched them?

Mightymax
02-21-2011, 01:39 AM
So, for purposes of clarification: After this season, Whitehead will have two years left on his current contract (2011/12 and 2012/13)?

gscott13
02-21-2011, 02:12 AM
So, for purposes of clarification: After this season, Whitehead will have two years left on his current contract (2011/12 and 2012/13)?

i believe its another three... it was a 3 year extension to a contract set to end at the conclusion of this season...

Fishman'81
02-21-2011, 02:20 AM
Is it really possible to split hairs like this? Isn't one of the knocks on Whitehead that he couldn't (or rather didn't) keep Grant Standbrook in the fold, weakening the program in an area it had previously been quite strong on: recruitment? Isn't that another way of saying that the players who go to Maine now aren't quite as good (or, in some cases, not nearly as good as) the players who used to be on the team?

If the team was capable of winning, but being held back by the coach, wouldn't they just stop listening to him? Does Maine really have players much better than the ones in the lineup who are sitting because Timmy has benched them?

A.The recruiting was lousy for a few years,yes.

B.The talent is there this year at the forward positions.(Not so much at D and goaltending.)

C.It's all Tim's responsibility.If you are compensated at that level in the State of Maine,you need to lose sleep whenever you have to to,just get the pieces in place...That's your job,after all.

Pretty simple stuff.

dmjossel
02-21-2011, 02:58 AM
C.It's all Tim's responsibility.If you are compensated at that level in the State of Maine,you need to lose sleep whenever you have to to,just get the pieces in place...That's your job,after all.

Pretty simple stuff.

I wouldn't argue at all whose responsibility it is. After all, Whitehead is the boss and the buck does (and should) stop with him.

However if recruiting has been weak, and the talent is not there at defense and goaltending, then it seems to me kind of odd and self-contradictory to say that an expression of displeasure with the program's performance is relevant only to the coaching and not the players. Coaches don't stop goals and they don't score them.

Part of stating that fans aren't happy with where and what Maine hockey is right now is saying that some of the guys on the roster should be playing somewhere else, and some guys playing somewhere else should be playing at Maine-- in other words, that Whitehead isn't doing as good a job as he needs to be at recruiting. I'm not sure it's really possible to say on the one hand that Whitehead should be let go, primarily or at least in part because of poor recruiting, and then say on the other hand that no offense is meant to any current players. I think that's a more valid concept where the major issues are bench coaching, player development, running practices, and those sorts of things.

One of the major differences I see between this year's program and Maine's glory days is goaltending. Maine always had excellent goaltending tandems, among the best in the league if not the best. That's not been the case for awhile, and there's no getting around the conclusion that this complaint means that Maine fans wish that Sirman, Ouellette and Sullivan were playing somewhere else, and somebody else was playing for Maine.

walrus
02-21-2011, 05:27 AM
One of the major differences I see between this year's program and Maine's glory days is goaltending. Maine always had excellent goaltending tandems, among the best in the league if not the best. That's not been the case for awhile, and there's no getting around the conclusion that this complaint means that Maine fans wish that Sirman, Ouellette and Sullivan were playing somewhere else, and somebody else was playing for Maine.
Or the talent on D and Goaltending is there and they aren't being used right, given the right gameplans or he sucks the life out of them. The last 4 years have produced the softest teams I've ever seen, stick checks have taken over for taking the body. Heaven forbid any D man actually touch someone with their body. I doubt you'll find anyone who thinks the Goalies have been handled right. This team needs a real goalie coach bad

rufus
02-21-2011, 05:41 AM
And I think there's plenty of talent level on the D, but they've played some games where their coverage, their mistakes with the puck, have been just abysmal.

Don't tell me that guys like Hegarty, Dimmen, Van Dyk and O'neil, and even the rest, aren't any more talented than guys we've had in the past like Dave MacIsaac, Jeff Libby, Brian White, Andy Silverman, etc., guys I've loved in Maine uniforms's, but certainly not blue chip talent.

The difference is those guys had coaches who could teach them, eliminate their mistakes and reduce the weaknesses in their games, and make them better defensemen.

acs64
02-21-2011, 06:02 AM
And I think there's plenty of talent level on the D, but they've played some games where their coverage, their mistakes with the puck, have been just abysmal.

Don't tell me that guys like Hegarty, Dimmen, Van Dyk and O'neil, and even the rest, aren't any more talented than guys we've had in the past like Dave MacIsaac, Jeff Libby, Brian White, Andy Silverman, etc., guys I've loved in Maine uniforms's, but certainly not blue chip talent.

The difference is those guys had coaches who could teach them, eliminate their mistakes and reduce the weaknesses in their games, and make them better defensemen.

Same goes with the goalies. Technically I havent seen anything wrong with this group...they're just not being developed properly. From the fowards all the way back to the goalies I'm happy with this years team. I just dont think the coaching staff is getting everything out of them that they should be. And, bringing in another goalie next year? This makes absolutely no sense to me. Maybe the kids the next Jimmy Howard, but how can you screw up your goalie recruiting and projections so bad that you end up with 4 goalies on your roster, or what is going to give? Just is gd wierd to me.

BobF
02-21-2011, 07:09 AM
Same goes with the goalies. Technically I havent seen anything wrong with this group...they're just not being developed properly. From the fowards all the way back to the goalies I'm happy with this years team. I just dont think the coaching staff is getting everything out of them that they should be. And, bringing in another goalie next year? This makes absolutely no sense to me. Maybe the kids the next Jimmy Howard, but how can you screw up your goalie recruiting and projections so bad that you end up with 4 goalies on your roster, or what is going to give? Just is gd wierd to me.

ACS- No goalie is coming in next year! In fact he may not be coming the following year. Morris is slated for 2012 or 2013. And maybe in your eyes the goalies have "technically" been a good group, (and I do see more potential with both Sullivan and Ouelette) the number of soft goals has been a major issue. So "technically" they are in position, but charlie brown one or let a trickler in. The effect that has on a team can be demoralizing, especially when it happens over and over again. No question team defense has been a major disappointment, especially with a senior group, but once in awhile you need a 'tender to come up with the big save, and that has not happened.

Two shutouts at Lowell is a nice confidence booster, but now they need to carry the attitude of defense first and solid goaltending into this weekend vs. Merrimack. Looks like we will be playing BU at BU, a team we are 0-1-2 against on the season, with only a goal separating the teams, but the last 4 games have to be played with an intensity that has been apparent only at certain times this year. Looking forward to Senior night on Saturday and hopefully the last game in the Alfond for House and Company will be a good one!

acs64
02-21-2011, 07:46 AM
ACS- No goalie is coming in next year! In fact he may not be coming the following year. Morris is slated for 2012 or 2013. And maybe in your eyes the goalies have "technically" been a good group, (and I do see more potential with both Sullivan and Ouelette) the number of soft goals has been a major issue. So "technically" they are in position, but charlie brown one or let a trickler in. The effect that has on a team can be demoralizing, especially when it happens over and over again. No question team defense has been a major disappointment, especially with a senior group, but once in awhile you need a 'tender to come up with the big save, and that has not happened.

Two shutouts at Lowell is a nice confidence booster, but now they need to carry the attitude of defense first and solid goaltending into this weekend vs. Merrimack. Looks like we will be playing BU at BU, a team we are 0-1-2 against on the season, with only a goal separating the teams, but the last 4 games have to be played with an intensity that has been apparent only at certain times this year. Looking forward to Senior night on Saturday and hopefully the last game in the Alfond for House and Company will be a good one!

My bad about Morris...age, ya know? When I say technically sound I mean the goalies have the tools I think and imo to be solid at this level. They just seem to be making mental or positional errors at times. How many goals have we seen this year coming off of impossible angles? You can discount one as a fluke but it happens much more than I'd like to see.

MEFANinLA
02-21-2011, 08:42 AM
And I think there's plenty of talent level on the D, but they've played some games where their coverage, their mistakes with the puck, have been just abysmal.

Don't tell me that guys like Hegarty, Dimmen, Van Dyk and O'neil, and even the rest, aren't any more talented than guys we've had in the past like Dave MacIsaac, Jeff Libby, Brian White, Andy Silverman, etc., guys I've loved in Maine uniforms's, but certainly not blue chip talent.

The difference is those guys had coaches who could teach them, eliminate their mistakes and reduce the weaknesses in their games, and make them better defensemen. Rufus, good points and the fact that whitey, silvermanand Libby would knock the head off of somebody if they came in the crease and harrassed the goalie. Always remember whitey taking the BU guy down ar WBA into and thru the glas sinto the stands and skating off with a hug esmile on his face, it was those type of hits laid down once ina while that made the other team think......hey if I run the goalie do I get a cheap seat in the crowd or my block knocked off when I come back down the crease. Silverman laid out some people too and libby definitely rubbed them out along the boards....who does that now in Timmay's system? Answer nobody!! Walshy and Gendron coached them up along with grant etc. Also one thing from the other day with the "buy-out" of timmay. It just goes to show the president didn't care about the program either, he can tell the AD what to do and when to do it and obviously he didn't tell King james to pull the tigger. What's $500 K in the long run, buy him out and get the team back to winning and you recover the $500 k in ticket, merchandise, TV, playoffs etc......versus another 3 years of Timmay leaving the program in shambles worse than it is now......Worst case start a buy out timmay fund and you will get the money to let him go bak to peewees and midgets heck even there he would be a lower tier coach!! When you said timmay you have't said much!! Now let's get him out and get a real coach and Maine back to playing Maine hockey for 60 minutes and the wins will follow.

Runsub5
02-21-2011, 10:05 AM
Congratulations to Tanner House and Brian Flynn in reaching the 100 point mark in their careers at Maine. Here's Larry's report on Saturday's game in today's BDN.

http://new.bangordailynews.com/2011/02/19/sports/umaine-hockey-shuts-out-umass-lowell-again/

walrus
02-21-2011, 10:41 AM
Defense goaltending, defense goaltending, I've been harping on it since the season began. Is it a question of talent, I don't think so or is it a question of being put in the position to succeed which is where all roads lead to. I don't see how you play D without touching anyone and the mistakes made by the goalies have been mental in many cases and thats coaching.

BoSox3066
02-21-2011, 10:45 AM
Flynn is one of what 5 guys to get 100 in 3 seasons post 99? Shields, Gus, Levs and M. Kariya by my count. Not bad for a Monarch.

KnowItAll
02-21-2011, 10:52 AM
I wouldn't argue at all whose responsibility it is. After all, Whitehead is the boss and the buck does (and should) stop with him.

However if recruiting has been weak, and the talent is not there at defense and goaltending, then it seems to me kind of odd and self-contradictory to say that an expression of displeasure with the program's performance is relevant only to the coaching and not the players. Coaches don't stop goals and they don't score them.

.
how many players did Walsh and Standbrook recruit to come to Maine in order to play in the NCAA tournament, ONLY?
how many did they recruit so that they would have the opportunity to progress under Walsh and Standbrook so that they would be prepared for the next levels?

Right.
players who have the choice do not come to Maine so that they might have a chance at the ECHL level... .the good ones want a chance at the NHL, and they go where a coach can give them that opportunity.
Mike Lundin progressed under Timmy and Grant, he was also lucky to be owned by a team with a very weak defensive corps.
(and he was cut by one NHL coach for his lack of tenacity--physical play--, and was reinstated by the next coach)

which other Whitehead (post standbrook) black bear progressed for a few years under Whitehead and did something in the pro ranks? (crickets...)
and which great freshmen got the he1l out of dodge before all hockey sense was coached out of them?

KnowItAll
02-21-2011, 10:56 AM
Much easier to screen a high school goalie than it will be to screen Cannata with the D he has in front of him



Careful on this one. Assuming Brice plays out like the rest of Maine's D over the last few years (10 games into your career, Timmay sucks the life out of you and you lose your passion, grit, knowledge of the game, energy, and confidence), we may want to hold back on playing Brice until the playoffs when we need all that....and Timmay's tutelage hasn't taken hold yet.

right... on both counts..
as for screening... at least they were there and trying to screen... against BU, all the forwards are in the corners or on the halfboards, fighting for possession... with nothing to do with the puck if they get possession.

and the second comment makes me sad... honestly. I think you really touched on something.

BobF
02-21-2011, 12:43 PM
Defense goaltending, defense goaltending, I've been harping on it since the season began. Is it a question of talent, I don't think so or is it a question of being put in the position to succeed which is where all roads lead to. I don't see how you play D without touching anyone and the mistakes made by the goalies have been mental in many cases and thats coaching.

Mental mistakes are inherently self-induced. If they did not know better that would be coaching. If they know where they are supposed to be, or what they are supposed to do, and don't do it, that's a mental mistake! So I think your post needs some rework.

And let's face it Ouellette was taken a year early as we were desperate for a netminder after Scotty left us high and dry (sorry bad pun!). And Sirman admittedly was out of shape, so we could not count on him. So Sirman was brought in late because of Wilson, and both Sullivan and Ouellette were recruited very late. Ouellette was then asked to expedite his matriculation to college and headed to Maine a year ahead of his original plans. Sirman was in much better shape this year and has played some great games, but he has also cost us some W's the last one being in Durham.

At the start of the year Sullivan seemed to be the goalie with the maturity and consistency. What I am hoping is that after this past weekend he has the confidence and his health to deliver for Maine down the stretch. Ouellette still has the biggest upside. And yes team defense has been abysmal at various points this year and we'll go nowhere without it vs. Merrimac and in the Hockey East quarters.

walrus
02-21-2011, 01:47 PM
Mental mistakes are inherently self-induced. If they did not know better that would be coaching. If they know where they are supposed to be, or what they are supposed to do, and don't do it, that's a mental mistake! So I think your post needs some rework. .

They make the same mistakes, to me thats coaching, they aren't getting the point or they aren't capable of getting the point or they aren't working at the point.

Runsub5
02-21-2011, 02:06 PM
Self-confidence is a huge component in being successful as a goal tender. A coach can work at instilling it into a player, but ultimately it has to come from within the player. By playing games and the natural maturation process of the player, will eventually lead to success. The lack of self-confidence, in my opinion, has been a big factor in some of Maine's losses.

rufus
02-21-2011, 03:23 PM
The other thing I didn't mention about those dfensemen, is that, with the exception of MacIsaac, they all had size and were taught how to use it. Shawn always said he looked for skill on offense, and size on defense, cause you could always teach defense. But it seems the teaching part is either now not being done, or just not done very well.