All Things Denver XXIX

[Dmann]

Re: All Things Denver XXIX

Puck Swami, you seem to be one of the smarter posters and a true DU fan. However, I must comment in this post. First off, Gwoz is not top five paid in the sport, he is lucky to be top 5 in the WCHA. He makes $240,000 in his base salary. That is behind coaches at Minny, Wisco, No Dak and UNO (Yes, UNO). It also puts him behind Mich, Mich St, Miami, Notre Dame and Ohio State in the CCHA. Throw in BU and BC in HE and he is not even top 10 in college hockey. His contract ends in 2014 (not several years). With that said, he reportably has a very good bonus structure kicking in with an NCAA appearances. Add the Natty Championships, the 08 WCHA Playoff and 10 WCHA league titles and administration isnt losing sleep over his salary. The issue Gwoz has is DU went out and paid Joe Scott $340,000+ in his base salary. I know bball is a different animal, but that salary immediately made Scott one of the highest paid coaches in the Sun Belt and he will be one of the highest paid coaches in the WAC. Even more so, Scott's 1st asst is making $140,000+, 2nd guy $100,000+, 3rd guy $90,000+ and the operations guy $60,000+. You will be hard pressed to find any staff in the Sun Belt/Wac with those salaries. Miller, who is arguably one of the best asst's in the country makes low 90's. Lalonde low 80's and the hockey ops guy makes mid 30's.
Now some of you think Scott was a huge mistake. I don't agree. He brought discipline and structure to a rock bottom program. They do well in the class room and they have gotten better. The issue is the salaries they paid for a coach who had the worst year in the history of Princeton Basketball and was going to get fired.
As for your comment about the declining ticket sales. Again wrong. DU hockey has a season ticket base this year of around 4,500. The same if not better than the past. They will jack up ticket prices and fill the building for the Wiscos, BC's and CC's. My point is they will still make the same this year as in past years. Around $2,000,000 in ticket revenue, compared to $180,000 in ticket revenue for men's bball. Since they made the "basketball push" at Denver, they have done little to nothing in marketing hockey. You need to work hard to fill the building for Bemidji and Mankato, but they don't care because they made thier money with hockey. They need to get people in the building for Bball and rightfully so. I just worry that it might be a lost cause. Bball in the front range is a tough sell. You commented on the 5,000 plus DU hoops had for the Northridge game. 60-70% of those were freebies. The next weekend, against a better name opponent in Portland, back to moms, dads, girlfriends and crickets.
I do agree with the lack of success in the tourny lately. Not acceptable for this program. At the same time Gwoz is 8-3 in the tourny in this decade. If he keeps getting there he will have his wins. With a one and done format, you will have your ups and downs. Who do you want? Wisco or Minny's coach. They have had recent losing seasons and are struggling now. No Dak's coach? They havent won a Natinional Championship in a decade and their players are always in trouble (and all 3 of these programs put more into hockey than DU)
Gwoz teams never falter (look at them this year and their recent bad years were 21 win seasons and just missing the tourney), they do exceptional in the classroom (breaking WCHA records for All-Academics) and never get in trouble. With everything stated above, you can see why Gwoz wants a new contract. We don't realize how lucky we are. If we lose Gwoz that is a huge statement about DU's committment to hockey. It will kill recruiting. Word out of No Dak is DU lost out on Rocco Grimaldi because he was concerned of Gwoz leaving and DU's committtment to hockey. What will top recruits say if DU lets Gwoz leave? Recruiting is everything and perception is everything. Frank Seratore has proven he can coach at Air Force. Look at has record at DU. It was awful. DU got away from being committed to hockey and if they lose Gwoz they will be headed in that direction again and we will be very average, in an average league and we will be all over this board saying "what happened". It's right in front of us.

Interesting yet bold first post!! Welcome aboard nonetheless. Are you a DU fan or RPI?, maybe both?

[Ralph Baer]

Re: All Things Denver XXIX

Interesting yet bold first post!! Welcome aboard nonetheless. Are you a DU fan or RPI?, maybe both?

Maybe he's Seth Appert.

[Dmann]

Re: All Things Denver XXIX

Maybe he's Seth Appert.

That was a good one! After I posted that first one, I went online to try to find a comprehensive list of college hockey coach's salaries and I'm coming up short. There must be a good site out there?, anyone know of one so we can settle this?

[Cross-Czech]

Re: All Things Denver XXIX

My $0.02 on the Gwoz contract situation - get the man signed now. I agree with DG that the coach is more important than the "program" when getting recruits and continuing to be a national power. A program might be able to bridge the gap between coaches (e.g. UND with Blais and Hakstol) but I do not want to take that risk. RPIhockeyrock's comment about Grimaldi is interesting to me. I recently had one of those "i heard from a guy who knows somebody who knows somebody" conversations and the comment was made that a top recruit we are going after has DU as his #1 choice but hasn't committed yet because he is waiting to see what happens with the Gwoz contract situation. Who knows how many situations are out there just like these? How many recruits are we missing out on? This makes signing Gwoz a top priority right now, not in 2014. I won't mention the recruit's name since it's such heresay.

[Dmann]

Re: All Things Denver XXIX

I won't mention the recruit's name since it's such heresay.

Oh, come on!!! This is disturbing indeed. It would appear that we are looking good for recruits for the next couple of years. However, if this story is true, then we need to get him signed ASAP. As for the poor post season appearances, a lot of this can be explained by injuries and some bad puck luck. We can't blame Gwoz anymore if it means losing killer recruits.

[du78]

Re: All Things Denver XXIX

Excellent post by rpihockeyrock. DU needs to step up and get Gwoz re-signed. Right now the program is a well-oiled machine with Gwoz re-loading every year rather than re-building. Players want to come play for Gwoz much like they did Murray. If there is doubt in a recruit's mind about the future of Gwoz, DU could be looking at re-building rather than re-loading. The coach and the recruits are what make the program and there has to be a balance between the two. Gwoz is on the brink of becoming a legend like Murray if he can get one or more additional NCAA titles at DU. He could become like Jo Pa, Wooden, Krzyzewski, MacInness, etc. by coaching the rest of his career at DU if he so chooses. If he were to leave for another college coaching position, I think the DU program would significantly suffer as most recruits would follow him as well as a good part of his staff. DU right now is an extremely competitive D-1 school in hockey, skiing and lacrosse. It would not surprise me to see the lax team make a run for the NCAA title in the next few years with Tierney at the helm. Not many schools are in the running for 3 national titles every year and, without Gwoz, the DU hockey team would probably fall significantly as a national power. There are very few potential coaching replacements out there with Gwoz's track record.

Dmann, keep in mind that only the recruits coming in next season have signed LOIs. All of the others are verbal committments which are not binding if a player changes his mind. If Gwoz were to leave, the players with verbals could just tell DU they aren't coming. It could also come down to where players with LOIs could ask to be let out of them because the coach is leaving. What looks like a rosy recruiting future could certainly turn quickly the other way if Gwoz were to leave.

[dggoddard]

Re: All Things Denver XXIX

Very interesting post by rpihockeyrock.

I have to agree with everything said, but wonder about the hockey season ticket totals. How are they counting Friday, Saturday and Full season tickets?

Clearly Gwozdecky wants to be paid the highest salary in D-1 hockey and I'm sure he wants to financially reward those who have been loyal to him.

Based on RPIHockeyRock's numbers and Chambers articles its paints a picture of DU's Athletic Department hemorrhaging money and having very few revenue streams available.

[Puck Swami]

Re: All Things Denver XXIX

Puck Swami, you seem to be one of the smarter posters and a true DU fan. However, I must comment in this post. First off, Gwoz is not top five paid in the sport, he is lucky to be top 5 in the WCHA. He makes $240,000 in his base salary. That is behind coaches at Minny, Wisco, No Dak and UNO (Yes, UNO). It also puts him behind Mich, Mich St, Miami, Notre Dame and Ohio State in the CCHA. Throw in BU and BC in HE and he is not even top 10 in college hockey. His contract ends in 2014 (not several years). With that said, he reportably has a very good bonus structure kicking in with an NCAA appearances. Add the Natty Championships, the 08 WCHA Playoff and 10 WCHA league titles and administration isnt losing sleep over his salary. The issue Gwoz has is DU went out and paid Joe Scott $340,000+ in his base salary. I know bball is a different animal, but that salary immediately made Scott one of the highest paid coaches in the Sun Belt and he will be one of the highest paid coaches in the WAC. Even more so, Scott's 1st asst is making $140,000+, 2nd guy $100,000+, 3rd guy $90,000+ and the operations guy $60,000+. You will be hard pressed to find any staff in the Sun Belt/Wac with those salaries. Miller, who is arguably one of the best asst's in the country makes low 90's. Lalonde low 80's and the hockey ops guy makes mid 30's.
Now some of you think Scott was a huge mistake. I don't agree. He brought discipline and structure to a rock bottom program. They do well in the class room and they have gotten better. The issue is the salaries they paid for a coach who had the worst year in the history of Princeton Basketball and was going to get fired.
As for your comment about the declining ticket sales. Again wrong. DU hockey has a season ticket base this year of around 4,500. The same if not better than the past. They will jack up ticket prices and fill the building for the Wiscos, BC's and CC's. My point is they will still make the same this year as in past years. Around $2,000,000 in ticket revenue, compared to $180,000 in ticket revenue for men's bball. Since they made the "basketball push" at Denver, they have done little to nothing in marketing hockey. You need to work hard to fill the building for Bemidji and Mankato, but they don't care because they made thier money with hockey. They need to get people in the building for Bball and rightfully so. I just worry that it might be a lost cause. Bball in the front range is a tough sell. You commented on the 5,000 plus DU hoops had for the Northridge game. 60-70% of those were freebies. The next weekend, against a better name opponent in Portland, back to moms, dads, girlfriends and crickets.
I do agree with the lack of success in the tourny lately. Not acceptable for this program. At the same time Gwoz is 8-3 in the tourny in this decade. If he keeps getting there he will have his wins. With a one and done format, you will have your ups and downs. Who do you want? Wisco or Minny's coach. They have had recent losing seasons and are struggling now. No Dak's coach? They havent won a Natinional Championship in a decade and their players are always in trouble (and all 3 of these programs put more into hockey than DU)
Gwoz teams never falter (look at them this year and their recent bad years were 21 win seasons and just missing the tourney), they do exceptional in the classroom (breaking WCHA records for All-Academics) and never get in trouble. With everything stated above, you can see why Gwoz wants a new contract. We don't realize how lucky we are. If we lose Gwoz that is a huge statement about DU's committment to hockey. It will kill recruiting. Word out of No Dak is DU lost out on Rocco Grimaldi because he was concerned of Gwoz leaving and DU's committtment to hockey. What will top recruits say if DU lets Gwoz leave? Recruiting is everything and perception is everything. Frank Seratore has proven he can coach at Air Force. Look at has record at DU. It was awful. DU got away from being committed to hockey and if they lose Gwoz they will be headed in that direction again and we will be very average, in an average league and we will be all over this board saying "what happened". It's right in front of us.

Great post, and thanks for making it. We obviously want the best for the program, and we both agree that Gwoz is the best long term option for the Pioneers.

Here are some of my points:

In 2009, Mike Chambers ran a base salary rundown of WCHA Coaches:

Alaska Anchorage — Dave Shyiak, $110,000 in 2009-10, contract through 2011-12
Colorado College – Scott Owens, financial terms unavailable, contract through 2012-13
Denver – George Gwozdecky, base and length unavailable
Minnesota – Don Lucia, $222,789 in 2007-08, contract through 2011-12
Minnesota Duluth – Scott Sandelin, $150,000 in 2009-10, contract through 2011-12
Minnesota State- Mankato – Troy Jutting, $138,000 in 2008-09, expected to sign contract extension
Michigan Tech – Jamie Russell, $116,759 in 2008-09, contract through 2011-12
North Dakota – Dave Hakstol, $210,000 in 2007-08, contract through 2011-12
St. Cloud State – Bob Motzko, $167,000 in 2008-09, contract through 2014-15
Wisconsin – Mike Eaves, $229,511 in 2008-09, contract through 2013-14

If your current base salary figure for Gwoz is of $240,000 is correct (and if Chambers' figures are correct) Gwoz still likely has the highest base salary in the WCHA (or near it), and with other income like bonuses, camps, his total compensation is likley in the mid 300s - probably less total compensation that Lucia or Eaves when you add up the other stuff, but for a top program, Gwoz is still very much in the ballpark, and I'm guess his total compensation package is still in the top 5 for the sport, or very close to it. All these programs know exactly what the other coaches make.

Getting top 5 compensation is great when the program is a top 5 program. Lately, the DU program has not finished well from an NCAA standpoint (five consecutive underachieving postseasons - in your words "not acceptable". We all agree that Gwoz really gets it done in the regualr season, and in the classroom and his kids don' get into trouble. If you weight NCAA tourney performance highy, as I do, the 8-3 decade record is nice, but not winning an NCAA game since 2005 trumps it.

Gwoz' contract deosent expire until 2014, which IS several years from now, according to how I count. If I were Gwoz, I still have time to get leverage back for a better deal. But if you are DU's adminstration, why would would you be in any hurry to renegotiate a contract for a program that hasn't won an NCAA game since 2005? There are two sides to any contract negotiation, and while almost every DU fan is calling for a new deal for Gwoz (in fear of him walking) I think it's fair to look at the stalemate from the perspective of both sides. I think DU is telling Gwoz that they have paid for excellence before and they'll do it again, but they need to see better NCAA finishes before they give up the big money again -- fair expectation?

As for basketball, I don't think comparing Gwoz and his staff to Scott and his staff makes much sense. D-I basketball IS a different animal. A lot of DU hockey fans don't like DU pushing hoops. But those fans may not understand that D-I athletics, and the $25 million spent on it, is part of a bigger strategy at DU to become more of a national university. Strategically, hockey may be the flagship sport at DU in term of revenue, but it is limited in terms of what it can do for DU nationally. The reality is that hockey means a lot to those of us who love and appreciate the tradition, but it pales in comparison to national recognition. In other words, we could win the hockey NCAAs for 5 years in a row, and still not get as much regongition nationally as one NCAA tourney run in hoops to say, the sweet 16.

Salary wise, there is far more pressure on D-I basketball coaches, and Scott's package is in the middle of the D-I coaching ranks, and nowhere near the top 50 in his sport. Basketball coaches get fired much more often than hockey coaches do, and even if DU is overpaying in hoops for the assistants, there is an expectation of winning, and if DU finishes with a losing season this year, my guess is that they only get another year or two after this year to win or they are out.

AS for hockey season tickets, DU season ticket base may be holding steady, but I know that sales are down overall, and the casual fans aren't coming out as they did a few years ago. Part of that is the economy, part of that is schedule and part is performance.. Once again, when you want to renogotiate a coaching contract, it helps if you are putting more butts in the seats now vs then. You have much more leverage with sellouts.

As for recruiting, I agree about perception of stability is important in coaching. But at the end of the day, I want our recruits to come to DU becuase of the school, the tradition and the pride as much as I want them to come for a coach. If Rocco thinks he's going to have a better hockey experience at UND, more power to him. UND is a great hockey school. I want kids at DU who want to be here because they like DU and what we offer beyond just the coaches. If coaching is the top driver, that kid should probably be playing junior hockey. Coaches come and go. The program stays.

Finally, I also wonder about DU's committment to hockey sometimes. But then when the school goes to the trustees and forks out $60,000 to get the players to Albany on the same plane last year when they NCAA said they wouldn't pay for a charter, it tells me they are committed to the sport. The program has what it needs to compete for titles and recruits.As for marketing budgets, I understand why they need to builld it for hoops, as they have 5,000 empty seats to fill vs 1,000 seats to fill with hockey.

[dggoddard]

Re: All Things Denver XXIX

The DU athletic department is heavily subsidized by the students' tuition. Who is actually paying Joe Scott's salary? You may be surprised to find out; the U.S. taxpayers.

Tonight on CNBC (7 PM MT) there will be a special about the potential student loan crisis and $1 trillion in student loans. As DU continues to hike up tuition every year to record levels, we have to assume that more of our students are going to be stuck with student loans they might never get out from under.

[Old Pio]

Re: All Things Denver XXIX

It's too close to Christmas, and I need a crap and a nap. So I'll make this short: Work out the man's contract, now. Get him signed, now. Stop putzing around, now. Or be prepared to return to the glory days of Lance Momotani.

[Puck Swami]

Re: All Things Denver XXIX

Good points, all. Even you Swami, for a change...
So why does my indifference to all sports not hockey and skiing rise to dislike for basketball - as far as DU is concerned?
If there is an answer, it may lie in considering that almost every other school in this country is chasing the same basketball dream. The basketball program is cheap compared to football. One or two good seasons will get the school noticed and the value from the school's output goes way up. So the costs are low and the results are highly valuable. It is like suing instead of doing right, advertising instead of making a good product, etc.
If it is so valuable and all it takes is throwing money at a good coach, why hasn't every school in the country succeeded at it? Heck if i knew i would do it, or convince rich schools that i really did know how to do it and they should shower me in $s. With all the schools out there trying to succeed on the basketball front, DU might want to drop out of that arms race (or move the men's basketball dollars into a good women's program) and do the best it can in the geographical and market niche where it has already had success.

Only men's basketball and football generate national recognition. Football is played to win nationally at 50 schools, and everyone else is cannon fodder for those lucky 50. DU can't compete at that level. Basketball is played seriously by 100 schools or so and everyone else is cannon fodder for the lucky 100. DU has figured it doesn't cost that much to try to get into the top 100. But perhaps to get there sustainably, they are going to need a coach who can recruit nationally, and the jury is out on that one.

If you look at DU's sports mix, they are very successful in those sports that fit the expensive, affluent demographic that DU's primary student body reflects. Soccer, hockey, lacrosse, gymastics, golf, tennis and swimming are sports dominated by affluent suburban kids, and DU does great in those sports, because there are plenty of the who can handle the schoolwork and even more of them to full out the rosters without scholarships. For example, men's lacrosse has 12 scholarships and a roster of 40+ kids. Do the math, and DU is coming out ahead cash flow wise from all those walk-ons paying full tutition.

[vizoroo]

Re: All Things Denver XXIX

First, if you haven't done it already go to
http://letsgodu.blogspot.com/
and read the story about the Jesse Martin and his family.
Merry Christmas to the Martins!


On a lighter note. the Denver Post has a story about Paul Statsny and Matt Duchene's Victory "Bang Bang" dance.
http://www.denverpost.com/avalanche/ci_16907770

Here's the dance:

[Old Pio]

Re: All Things Denver XXIX

It's so great to see Jesse out of that hideous halo.

[MagnessMan]

Re: All Things Denver XXIX

I agree that rpi's post was interesting. The guy knows the college game (most likely from the inside). There aren't too many people that can take PS to school but he did. I think the Athl. Dept at DU is terribly managed. There is a whole lot of fat, that should and could be trimmed. Hockey is THE program. Sign George and do it ASAP. The good recruits just keep coming.

[Dmann]

Re: All Things Denver XXIX

It's too close to Christmas, and I need a crap and a nap. So I'll make this short: Work out the man's contract, now. Get him signed, now. Stop putzing around, now. Or be prepared to return to the glory days of Lance Momotani.

OK, that was almost a disaster for my keyboard, very funny Old P.!! I remember an article about the incoming players for that year and it said something like, the coaching staff were all smiles when they signed Lance Momotani.He was one of our top recruits as I recall. I thought he was pretty good. Or am I remembering this through beer goggles (as usual)?