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View Full Version : 2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread: Congrats to Meghan Duggan!



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Radar3535
02-22-2011, 09:42 PM
Just pics..don't take it personal.
If I had the goalie pic of my choice it would be Mandy Mazz without a doubt but she's injured and not playing as of yet for Cornell.
She epitomizes every aspect of what the PK award stands for.
In a word....Brilliant!

Dont take it personal.... but you are a homer !!!!Bauer over Schaus, come on. Let me guess ,your top three will hail from ...ehh?

IceIsNice
02-22-2011, 09:50 PM
Dont take it personal.... but you are a homer !!!!Bauer over Schaus, come on. Let me guess ,your top three will hail from ...ehh?
Canada? :rolleyes:

JosephPSchmoe
02-22-2011, 09:51 PM
... but you are a homer!

Aren't we all homers?

OnMAA
02-23-2011, 08:22 AM
Aren't we all homers?

Some just more blatant than others. ;)

dave1381
02-23-2011, 03:53 PM
Some of the Kazmaier discussion has taken some various views on Agosta's scoring numbers in comparison to Knight and Duggan. I'll summarize two views:
(1) Agosta's point total is so high that she clearly deserves the Kaz, no matter how you adjust for strength-of-schedule
(2) Agosta plays in the CHA so we should completely discount her numbers.

Does either of these views have more merit? (For the moment I'll ignore the issue of whether some of these players score mainly against weaker opponents, and other Kazmaier criteria)

The baseline numbers are that Agosta scores 2.57 ppg, Duggan 2.15 pgg, Kngiht 2.03 ppg. So Agosta scores 19.5% more ppg than Duggan and 26.6% more than Knight.

So how difficult are these points to come by? One measure we can look at it is the average goals allowed by Mercyhurst and Wisconsin's respective opponents. We know Wisconsin played a tougher schedule. Wisconsin's opponents allowed 2.89 goals per game, Mercyhurst's opponents allowed 3.00 goals per game -- only 3.5% more than Wisconsin. So this exercise alone would suggest that Agosta's higher point total isn't simply a matter of schedule strength.

HOWEVER, the previous exercise ignores the fact that Wisconsin's opponents played better offenses than Mercyhurst's opponents. We need some way to adjust for that. Fortunately Robin Locke at SLU estimates a statistical model where he determines an offensive and defensive parameter for each team. Based on these adjust numbers, Mercyhurst opponents average 2.81 goals against, Wisconsin's opponents average 2.39 goals against (if they were to play a league average schedule). Mercyhurt's opponents are then 17.6% easier to score on than Wisconsin's.

That accounts for almost all the scoring difference between Agosta and Duggan. If both players played league average schedules, the method suggests Agosta would have 2.26 ppg, and Duggan have 2.22.

So in conclusion, it'd be wrong to completely discount Agosta's candidacy due to the CHA, but it's not a whole order of magnitude above Duggan's performance either, and yet this is really the one criterion where Agosta would seem to have an advantage over Duggan.

D2D
02-23-2011, 04:36 PM
Again comparing Agosta to Duggan, it is interesting to also look each player's respective contributions in terms of helping their teams prevent goals, i.e. which is a more effective two-way player.

Agosta's +/- is a very good +33. Mercyhurst has outscored their opponents 161-59, a differential of +102. As a percentage of the team's total, Agosta's is a very respectable 32%.

However Duggan's numbers are even better. She is a +61 on a team that has outscored their opponents 181-58 (+123). As a percentage she's very close to an amazing 50%. She obviously makes it a lot more difficult for the other team to score at even strength whenever she's on the ice.

Of course there are many other factors that go into these numbers, but I know of no better way to measure a player's defensive contributions, something coaches might appreciate more so than fans. Over the course of an entire season I would think the numbers mean something.

mercyfan
02-23-2011, 04:50 PM
Those facts are all correct. I am a Mercyhurst fan who has watched many games. I agree that Agosta is a good player, but not Patty Kaz material. She is selfish and not a two way player at all.. if you look at the +/- of agosta vs stronger teams it is not very good. Against Wisconsin, she was scored on 6 of the 7 goals. Against Cornell the first game she was -3, with the Bendus, Bram, Bestland (3B's) getting all the points. In all close games that Mercyhurst has played this year this seems to be the trend. The 3B line stepping up while the Agosta Scanzano and Jones lines disappearing. This has to account for something? I think Bendus and Bram are gettin way overlooked. Agosta is an outstanding player.. in games that don't necessarily mean much.

granddaddyscout
02-23-2011, 05:32 PM
Those facts are all correct. I am a Mercyhurst fan who has watched many games. I agree that Agosta is a good player, but not Patty Kaz material. She is selfish and not a two way player at all.. if you look at the +/- of agosta vs stronger teams it is not very good. Against Wisconsin, she was scored on 6 of the 7 goals. Against Cornell the first game she was -3, with the Bendus, Bram, Bestland (3B's) getting all the points. In all close games that Mercyhurst has played this year this seems to be the trend. The 3B line stepping up while the Agosta Scanzano and Jones lines disappearing. This has to account for something? I think Bendus and Bram are gettin way overlooked. Agosta is an outstanding player.. in games that don't necessarily mean much.



Ouch!!!! tell us how you really feel.

Not a big fan of focusing on the negative, I do think it is hard to find a more talented player as selfless as Duggan. I think Agosta and Knight probably have more "pure offensive hockey" talent, but Duggan really is the total package when you talk to coaches, teammates, former teammates, opposing players, etc... It really does seem hard to find detractors.

dave1381
02-23-2011, 05:43 PM
I agree that Agosta is a good player, but not Patty Kaz material.
I agree with the general thrust of the comments but I think a few details are a bit unfair to Agosta.


if you look at the +/- of agosta vs stronger teams it is not very good.
True

Against Wisconsin, she was scored on 6 of the 7 goals.
Actually it was 5 of 7, and 3 of the first 5. Meghan scored to make it a 5-4 game, then Wisconsin added one more plus an empty netter. I'm not sure you really punish Meghan for being on the ice at the end of the game.


Against Cornell the first game she was -3
She was on the ice for all three Cornell goals. Technically it was -1 since one goal was PP and she was on the ice for Scanzano's game-winner.


with the Bendus, Bram, Bestland (3B's) getting all the points.
In regulation. Bendus in particular stood out with a +3 performance.


In all close games that Mercyhurst has played this year this seems to be the trend. The 3B line stepping up while the Agosta Scanzano and Jones lines disappearing. This has to account for something? I think Bendus and Bram are gettin way overlooked. Agosta is an outstanding player.. in games that don't necessarily mean much.
I generally agree that Agosta generally did not play well in the three toughest games Mercyhurst played. To attempt to be an Agosta apologist, I might think that (1) three is just a really small sample of games (2) she may have put too much pressure on herself those games, (3) perhaps the top teams just really focused on frustrating her whenever she was on the ice, and tried to let the Bendus line beat them

All that said, the other leading Kaz candidates were consistently successful even against the toughest opponents, so I do see these three games having a large negative impact on Agosta's candidacy.

Hux
02-24-2011, 08:24 AM
Ouch!!!! tell us how you really feel.

Not a big fan of focusing on the negative, I do think it is hard to find a more talented player as selfless as Duggan. I think Agosta and Knight probably have more "pure offensive hockey" talent, but Duggan really is the total package when you talk to coaches, teammates, former teammates, opposing players, etc... It really does seem hard to find detractors.

Bingo. I've seen Agosta play on several occasions over her career and I've not been impressed due to her dismal defensive play. I've seen Duggan play many times as well, and the two don't compare. Duggan is the better all-around player.

brookyone
02-24-2011, 02:04 PM
Those facts are all correct. I am a Mercyhurst fan who has watched many games. I agree that Agosta is a good player, but not Patty Kaz material. She is selfish and not a two way player at all.. if you look at the +/- of agosta vs stronger teams it is not very good. Against Wisconsin, she was scored on 6 of the 7 goals. Against Cornell the first game she was -3, with the Bendus, Bram, Bestland (3B's) getting all the points. In all close games that Mercyhurst has played this year this seems to be the trend. The 3B line stepping up while the Agosta Scanzano and Jones lines disappearing. This has to account for something? I think Bendus and Bram are gettin way overlooked. Agosta is an outstanding player.. in games that don't necessarily mean much.


Bingo. I've seen Agosta play on several occasions over her career and I've not been impressed due to her dismal defensive play. I've seen Duggan play many times as well, and the two don't compare. Duggan is the better all-around player.

I'm forced to admit getting the very same impression on the few occasions I've had the privilege of watching the Lakers.

froshgramp'10
02-25-2011, 03:07 PM
I have just taken a second look at the original 26 nominees and I find it hard to believe that the neither of the very solid OSU players, McIntosh or Spooner, are included.Embarassing!!!

dave1381
02-25-2011, 05:58 PM
I have just taken a second look at the original 26 nominees and I find it hard to believe that the neither of the very solid OSU players, McIntosh or Spooner, are included.Embarassing!!!
Reason is coaches are asked to nominate 5 from conference + 5 others. It then makes sense that OSU and Bemidji players failed to make this list, since they're not considered top 5 in the WCHA or nation.

Whether this list is embarassing or not depends on its goals. It clearly is not a list of the top 26 players in the country. But I'd maintain it's a suitable ballot for selecting the top 10, yet it's still caused too much frustration. ARM may be right the correct solution is to allow the larger conferences to nominate more players.

RStarr
02-25-2011, 08:12 PM
I have just taken a second look at the original 26 nominees and I find it hard to believe that the neither of the very solid OSU players, McIntosh or Spooner, are included. Embarrassing!!! Their omission from the Kaz list is strictly punishment for going to tOhio State. what the HELL were they thinking?! :confused:

True North 3
02-25-2011, 08:26 PM
Now, now, be nice!! Spooner had a hell of a tournament at the Four Nations (one of the big stages)and is a fantastic player. Don't be so hard on Ohio. How quickly we forget Bonhomme, Chesson, Laaksonen.

OnMAA
02-26-2011, 09:17 AM
Their omission from the Kaz list is strictly punishment for going to tOhio State. what the HELL were they thinking?! :confused:

I'll never forget it. Ms Spooner is one hell of a competitor, and tough as nails. One year at the big Stoney tournament, she hot hit by a puck in the face and broke her jaw. Saw her being escorted out of the rink by one of the Durham coaches, and I was thinking, couple of weeks before the final U18 camp and 6-7 weeks before U18. That is a tough blow. Well they put her on the team anyway given her skill. She missed 6 weeks of hockey with her mouth wired shut. She did suit up during the U18 tournament, just after she came back to play. Ontario met Quebec in the final. Quebec had a great team that year with Cournoyer, Rougeau, Poulin, Dumais, Oles, D'aoust and Thibault. With about 10 minutes to go in the third, with the game on the line, Spooner was nailed into the boards by Rougeau, and she came up smarting and could be seen in agony having just recuperated from her broken jaw. She was helped of the ice off into the hallway. She was visibly PO'd and visibly hurt. They were checking out her jaw, and I never forget that image and the flashback to less than two months prior at Stoney. Well five minutes later she was on the ice and played liked a caged animal let loose. Ontario ended up winning that Gold medal game 4-3 in OT, and that day showed me how tough a female athlete can be. I have a lot of respect for Ms Spooner. A great hockey player, with a heart almost unmatched.

OnMAA.

Radar3535
02-26-2011, 09:31 AM
You can't be serious. Let me tell you a story about Ms Spooner, so you can eat your words.

I'll never forget it. Ms Spooner is one hell of a competitor, and tough as nails. One year at the big Stoney tournament, she hot hit by a puck in the face and broke her jaw. Saw her being escorted out of the rink by one of the Durham coaches, and I was thinking, couple of weeks before the final U18 camp and 6-7 weeks before U18. That is a tough blow. Well they put her on the team anyway given her skill. She missed 6 weeks of hockey with her mouth wired shut. She did suit up during the U18 tournament, just after she came back to play. Ontario met Quebec in the final. Quebec had a great team that year with Cournoyer, Rougeau, Poulin, Dumais, Oles, D'aoust and Thibault. With about 10 minutes to go in the third, with the game on the line, Spooner was nailed into the boards by Rougeau, and she came up smarting and could be seen in agony having just recuperated from her broken jaw. She was helped of the ice off into the hallway. She was visibly PO'd and visibly hurt. They were checking out her jaw, and I never forget that image and the flashback to less than two months prior at Stoney. Well five minutes later she was on the ice and played liked a caged animal let loose. Ontario ended up winning that Gold medal game 4-3 in OT, and that day showed me how tough a female athlete can be. I have a lot of respect for Ms Spooner. A great hockey player, with a heart almost unmatched. For you to question her choice of school. Give me a break. You should take that back and apologize.

OnMAA.

I dont think choice of school was being attacked. I think the "they" was the Kaz voters.

OnMAA
02-26-2011, 09:45 AM
I dont think choice of school was being attacked. I think the "they" was the Kaz voters.

Ooops :o :o :o. Fast fingers. re-reading it you are correct. Need another morning coffee, or I'll blame it on English being my third language :o. Apologies to Ms Starr for the wrong interpretation. The story is still worth sharing though.

mattj711
02-26-2011, 09:45 AM
I dont think choice of school was being attacked. I think the "they" was the Kaz voters.

Based on previous statements by Rstarr, it was definitely the choice of school (or more importantly in Rstarr's view the choice of coach) that was being attacked. I interpreted "they" as referring to Spooner, McIntosh or any other tOSU player.

RStarr
02-26-2011, 11:17 AM
Based on previous statements by Rstarr, it was definitely the choice of school (or more importantly in Rstarr's view the choice of coach) that was being attacked. I interpreted "they" as referring to Spooner, McIntosh or any other tOSU player.
correct. http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/2738/highfive.gif