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ARM
02-21-2011, 05:12 PM
Is Stack a sure thing? If I was voting, I'd have a hard time putting two BC players w/o anyone from BU. Stack's numbers are very similar to Wakefield, and they aren't as good as Poulin, plus she's behind others like Scanzano and the Lams. I'm not even sure that Bendus is a lock for the top 10, because Decker is ahead of her in PPG leaders. No, I'm not saying that Decker gets a spot, but the lower one drifts in the charts, the harder look one is likely to take in terms of an analysis. Neither Stack nor Bendus is the most recognizable player on their team, so I'd think that they will suffer in that regard. Both UND and BC players get a boost in that their teams weren't very good a year ago without them. In the case of BC, most would say that is more Schaus than Stack if asked to choose, while that is harder to decipher in the case of the Lams.

Bumbles
02-21-2011, 05:19 PM
I think both Stack and Schaus will make it because although BC would probably still be a good team, I really don't think they would be in the top 10 without those two. Granted this can be said for a lot of players on different teams, if you look at BC's results, you'll notice that Stack has had the GT or GW goal in many games and especially as of late, BC's offensive has been stagnant but have still been able to win because Schaus only lets up a goal at most each game.

dave1381
02-21-2011, 05:56 PM
Is Stack a sure thing? If I was voting, I'd have a hard time putting two BC players w/o anyone from BU.
No, she's not. Perhaps I should go back to my previous format for clarity:

Locks:
F Duggan, Knight, Agosta
D Fortino
G Raty, Schaus

Bubble (just in):
F Stack, JLam, Bendus
D Larocque

Bubble (just out):
F Wakefield, Philip-Poulin, MLam-Kolls

Not even nominated!
G Martin, Lacasse


Stack's numbers are very similar to Wakefield, and they aren't as good as Poulin, plus she's behind others like Scanzano and the Lams.

Well to the extent that clutch play is a factor, it favors Stack. Now part of this is simply far-and-away the No. 1 scoring threat on her team with little other help. So Stack is simply going to be involved on a larger share of those goals.

I think Philip-Poulin will have a tough time simply because she's played in less than 75% of BU's games this year. I thought she & Wakefield would both make the cut initially but I feel they both faded a bit down the stretch.

In the BU-BC, games here's a summary of the contributions
6-3 BC: Stack hat trick, 3 point effort for Philip-Poulin AFTER BU was already down 5-0
1-0 BU: Wakefield with the only goal
4-0 BU: Wakefield 2g2a, Philip-Poulin 1g2a (after this game I thought they'd both make the Kaz 10 and neither BC player would)
2-1 BC (Beanpot): Stack 1g1a, nothing for Wakefield, Philip-Poulin didn't play

So you could both Stack & Wakefield had first star performances among forwards in those games. I give a litle more weight to the Beanpot.

Stack is a +25 on a team that's +32 overall. Wakefield +23 and Philip-Poulin +24 on a team that's +43 overall.

Within Hockey East, Stack was 22-11-33 in 21 games, Wakefield 17-10-27 in 17 games, Philip-Poulin only played 13 Hockey East games. To the extent support comes from within the conference that'll be an impact.

Stack is a senior team tri-captain with Schaus. Wakefield and Philip-Poulin are both in their first years with BU.

Stack and Wakefield have both mode all-academic in the past so no real difference there.

It's a little closer between Stack and Wakefield than I had expected, and part of the reason is Stack has been better recently, and maybe I'm not giving Wakefield enough credit for earlier in the season.


I'm not even sure that Bendus is a lock for the top 10, because Decker is ahead of her in PPG leaders. No, I'm not saying that Decker gets a spot, but the lower one drifts in the charts, the harder look one is likely to take in terms of an analysis.
Right, and I mentioned the same issue in terms of Scanzano passing her in overall scoring. Also 5 Mercyhurst players on the ballot doesn't help her either. I still think she deserves Kaz 10 status, but yes it may be that she gets cut before the Lams.


In the case of BC, most would say that is more Schaus than Stack if asked to choose, while that is harder to decipher in the case of the Lams.
I agree, Schaus has stronger recognition between 1 of 2 national team goalies, while Stack is one of many forwards. I think on a day-to-day basis, Stack had more standout games, while a couple bad outings for Schaus stood out more. Schaus did have a few strong performances more recently, like the Beanpot final.

dave1381
02-21-2011, 06:13 PM
My top 10:
...
Rebecca Johnston F Jr. Cornell Univ. Sudbury, Ont.


So this is the one big difference between your post and everything I've written, and a few Cornell fans have pitched for Johnston as well. You left off Bendus.

I can agree she's one of the top 10 players in the country. I thought she was the most dominant player at the 4 Nations Cup. Was she one of the 10 best in college games this season? I don't think so.

Can you point to one game against a top opponent where Johnston had a big point? I haven't found one. You can complain that I put too much emphasis on stats, but all the other candidates have something I can point to on paper. Johnston missed the first Harvard-Dartmouth weekend for Four Nations, the top two other teams in her conference. This past weekend? 0-0-0.

I just know head-to-head with Bendus in that first game at Cornell, Bendus had three assists and was +3. Johnston had 1 assist and no goals, and was -1 between in the two games with Mercyhurst.

As great as Johnston is, I think you have to score more than one point in your team's six toughest games of the season to make the Kaz 10.

papulaisle
02-21-2011, 06:54 PM
Why does that not shock me? :D

I happen to be with granddaddyscout, Matt. But more as to aren't there players on other teams who are being neglected/passed by, in order to honor-the what I call, many, on the better known (more winning) teams? Doesn't one benefit by playing on a winner? Benefit as to more scoring opportunities, better defense, goal, etc., etc., that results in player "A" at Cornell (in 2011) finding the slope to her liking and thus amassing kudos whereas player "B" at Union (in 2011) finds the same hill of recognition so steep as to be unclimbable? Aren't there players on 'loser' teams that have performed so far above their mates,say, that they too need to be recognized. Rather than lumping in many from the one (team)? There are. I think, say, of Quinnipiac's, Babstock. Sure, as I write this I expect I will be reminded that this situation exactly as I describe it has been mulled over ad infinitum; coaches choose I will be told; etc. Limits can be placed on number of players from one team. That is a hugely uncreative solution. BUT A CREATIVE SOLUTION is out there.

It needs to be addressed.

OnMAA
02-21-2011, 07:02 PM
My picks

Meghan Agosta F Sr. Mercyhurst College Ruthven, Ont.
Jenni Bauer G Sr. Niagara Univ. St. Catherines, Ont.
Vicki Bendus F Sr. Mercyhurst College Wasaga Beach, Ont.
Bailey Bram F Jr. Mercyhurst College Ste. Ann, Man.
Meghan Duggan F Sr. Univ. of Wisconsin Danvers, Mass.
Laura Fortino D So. Cornell Univ. Hamilton, Ont.
Hilary Knight F Jr. Univ. of Wisconsin Sun Valley, Idaho
Noora Raty G So. Univ. of Minnesota Espoo, Finland
Jesse Scanzano F Sr. Mercyhurst College Montreal, Que.
Jenn Wakefield F Jr. Boston Univ. Pickering, Ont.

Four Hurst players and no RJ......Don't think so.
Bauer over Schaus...While the former has a great hockey name, can't see that happening.

RStarr
02-21-2011, 08:15 PM
oh Sara, how I long for thee... :(

myStuff
02-21-2011, 08:33 PM
Four Hurst players and no RJ......Don't think so.
Bauer over Schaus...While the former has a great hockey name, can't see that happening.

Just pics..don't take it personal.
If I had the goalie pic of my choice it would be Mandy Mazz without a doubt but she's injured and not playing as of yet for Cornell.
She epitomizes every aspect of what the PK award stands for.
In a word....Brilliant!

dave1381
02-21-2011, 09:00 PM
That is a hugely uncreative solution. BUT A CREATIVE SOLUTION is out there. It needs to be addressed.

Is the impetus behind your post that Cornell had 4 nominees and Dartmouth had zero?

I think all 4 Cornell nominees are quite deserving. Regarding your player complementarity hypothesis, White and Johnston have been the top scorers on past Cornell teams. Jenner is the top scorer on this team.

Look at the ECAC leading scorers:

1 Brianne Jenner Cornell FR F 20 1.55 15-16-31
2 Chelsea Karpenko Cornell JR F 20 1.50 11-19-30
Kelly Babstock Quinnipiac FR F 22 1.36 22- 8-30
4 Rebecca Johnston Cornell JR F 20 1.45 17-12-29
5 Catherine White Cornell JR F 20 1.40 14-14-28
Laura Fortino Cornell SO D 20 1.40 7-21-28
That list is actually quite remarkable. Can you think of any team that achieved such success while maintaining such balance?? The closest I can think of is... wait for it... 2001 Dartmouth! If the same Kaz nomination process were in place in 2001, I suspect that Dartmouth team would've gotten a lot of nominees too (but back then it was limited to 2 per team, and the nominee list was not made public)

OnMAA
02-21-2011, 09:26 PM
Just pics..don't take it personal.
If I had the goalie pic of my choice it would be Mandy Mazz without a doubt but she's injured and not playing as of yet for Cornell.
She epitomizes every aspect of what the PK award stands for.
In a word....Brilliant!

Not too worry, nothing Personal. My comments were partly TIC, but got the message accross. :)

Overall this is a great discussion. Shows the abundance of talent spread around the many teams.

OnMAA
02-21-2011, 09:28 PM
oh Sara, how I long for thee... :(

Sara Who ? P? or V? or possibly another one ?.

dave1381
02-21-2011, 10:47 PM
Sara Who ? P? or V? or possibly another one ?.
You referred to Bauer being a great hockey name?

It's Sara Bauer, 2006 Kazmaier winner and 2007 Frozen Four MVP, and Wisconsin's all-time scoring leader until just recently.

ARM
02-21-2011, 11:06 PM
Aren't there players on 'loser' teams that have performed so far above their mates,say, that they too need to be recognized.This is a very good point, although "less successful" may be a better word choice than "loser". :) That is why I think the process that favors some conferences over others in the nomination process is unfortunate. In the past, at least players that didn't make the top ten because their team was overshadowed could get a nomination. Because every team she faces is focused on stopping her, a player like Natalie Spooner can't put up the numbers needed to be a Finalist, but she at least deserved a nomination.

granddaddyscout
02-22-2011, 12:31 AM
Is the impetus behind your post that Cornell had 4 nominees and Dartmouth had zero?

I think all 4 Cornell nominees are quite deserving. Regarding your player complementarity hypothesis, White and Johnston have been the top scorers on past Cornell teams. Jenner is the top scorer on this team.

Look at the ECAC leading scorers:

That list is actually quite remarkable. Can you think of any team that achieved such success while maintaining such balance?? The closest I can think of is... wait for it... 2001 Dartmouth! If the same Kaz nomination process were in place in 2001, I suspect that Dartmouth team would've gotten a lot of nominees too (but back then it was limited to 2 per team, and the nominee list was not made public)


Here are the top 11 scorers in the WCHA as a comparison;

Point Scoring GP PPG G-A-P
1 Meghan Duggan Wisconsin SR F 34 2.15 32-41-73
2 Hilary Knight Wisconsin JR F 34 2.03 42-27-69
3 Brianna Decker Wisconsin SO F 34 1.91 28-37-65
4 Jocelyne Lamoureux North Dakota SO F 29 1.86 26-28-54
5 Monique Lamoureux-Koll North Dakota SO F/D 29 1.79 21-31-52
6 Elin Holmlov Minnesota Duluth SR F 30 1.53 16-30-46
7 Laura McIntosh Ohio State JR F 31 1.45 12-33-45
8 Haley Irwin Minnesota Duluth JR F 21 2.00 18-24-42
Amanda Kessel Minnesota FR F 30 1.40 15-27-42
10 Brooke Ammerman Wisconsin JR F 32 1.25 15-25-40
11 Natalie Spooner Ohio State JR F 27 1.44 26-13-39

Pretty impressive numbers against much tougher competition than the ECAC has to offer. I would argue that Spooner, Ammerman, Irwin, etc are pretty deserving as well and as a Freshman Kessel made a pretty good case as compared to the 3 freshmen nominated. I don't think any are top ten necessarily; it is just puzzling that there seems to be a different standard for the West. All is moot as I believe it comes down to Agosta or Duggan.

True North 3
02-22-2011, 11:38 AM
Agreed. I believe it also comes down to their situation. Duggan is the leading scorer in what is viewed as the best women's league in the world. She faced more top ten teams this year than Agosta, and faced some of the best female goalies around. Adding to that, Duggan is known to be a fantastic hockey player. That is obvious. It is her qualities off the ice that we seem to hear about more. Her leadership qualities and skills displayed at Wisco and with USA are legendary and she is only 23(?). She is as great off the ice as she is on, and that is a rare quality in any athlete. Agosta is an unreal talent and a great person, however I just don't think there are many athletes out there who are such a complete package like Duggan. Just my thoughts....and I'm Canadian.

taxicab
02-22-2011, 01:14 PM
This may sound a little crazy but, I think that an additional variable needs to be considered in regards to who the nominees are, PIM. Not only the # of PEN but the actual PIM as well.
For example there are 5 nominees with close to 50 PIM each playing around 30 games. One player has 17 PEN with 50 PIM. You do the math. That means that
player has received something other then 2 min. penalties. I think the purpose would be two fold. First to uphold the integrity of what the award stands for
and second to help clean up the game. Players who hurt other players need to be held accountable. The women's game is a thing of beauty in my eyes. It is a game in which
checking is not allowed. When a player is allowed to play cheap or dirty they are not only putting their opponents in harms way they are challenging the beauty of the women's game.
Changing it from a skill game to watch out for your back game. There have been way too many broken bones, back, shoulders and head injuries etc..... Don't get me wrong I know
this is not ping pong it is a physical game and that part of it is fine. I am talking about the cheap hits from behind, slew foots, blows to the head etc..... Cheap players should not be
awarded/nominees they should be held accountable. How about this food for thought, any player that causes an injury requiring a player to be out of the game on a cheap hit should have to take
the same amount of time off as the recovering player. Now I know that is absurd but, think about how many times a player might think before they hit, checked, punched etc...

dave1381
02-22-2011, 01:57 PM
This may sound a little crazy but, I think that an additional variable needs to be considered in regards to who the nominees are, PIM. Not only the # of PEN but the actual PIM as well.
For example there are 5 nominees with close to 50 PIM each playing around 30 games.

Not crazy at all -- I actually completely agree with you that PIMs should be considered. They're certainly a negative impact on team success.

I don't think 11-19 penalties for the season is anything to be alarmed about, but JLam has 44 Pen, 96 PIM -- just way more than any of the other candidates. MLam-Kolls with 23 Pen, 46 PIM is also up there.

I think there's still room for one Lam in the top 10, but I would hope coaches would consider that when contrasting them with someone else on the Kaz 10 bubble like Bendus, who has only 4 Pen, 8 PIM.

I don't think there's a significant enough difference between the leading candidates: Agosta, Knight, Duggan for the PIM to make a difference there.

One year where this issue definitely came up before was 2004 with Ruggiero.


I believe it also comes down to their situation. Duggan is the leading scorer in what is viewed as the best women's league in the world. She faced more top ten teams this year than Agosta, and faced some of the best female goalies around.

I agree with you on Duggan, but I support her not simply because she plays in the WCHA, but because she was consistently successful in those games against top 10 teams.

Hux
02-22-2011, 06:26 PM
I think both Stack and Schaus will make it because although BC would probably still be a good team, I really don't think they would be in the top 10 without those two. Granted this can be said for a lot of players on different teams, if you look at BC's results, you'll notice that Stack has had the GT or GW goal in many games and especially as of late, BC's offensive has been stagnant but have still been able to win because Schaus only lets up a goal at most each game.

She may have many game tying or winning goals, but too many times she was MIA for the first 57 minutes of a game.

granddaddyscout
02-22-2011, 07:12 PM
I agree with you on Duggan, but I support her not simply because she plays in the WCHA, but because she was consistently successful in those games against top 10 teams.[/QUOTE]

The other things about Duggan are;
1. She never seems to quit or take a shift off. She goes hard late in the 3rd when they are up 9-0, dives to block passes or catch a player from behind long after the victory is sealed.

2. She works harder of defense than she does on offense and if often goes un-noticed because she is so strong in the O-zone.

3. She is a fabulous leader and role model on the ice, in the room, and away from hockey. When you talk to people close to the UW program they just can't compliment her enough in those areas.

I think she really has stepped up in so many ways this year. Agosta and Knight are great as well, but Duggan seems to be special. l

skatefast
02-22-2011, 07:38 PM
The other things about Duggan are;
1. She never seems to quit or take a shift off. She goes hard late in the 3rd when they are up 9-0, dives to block passes or catch a player from behind long after the victory is sealed.

2. She works harder of defense than she does on offense and if often goes un-noticed because she is so strong in the O-zone.

3. She is a fabulous leader and role model on the ice, in the room, and away from hockey. When you talk to people close to the UW program they just can't compliment her enough in those areas.

I think she really has stepped up in so many ways this year. Agosta and Knight are great as well, but Duggan seems to be special. l

I agree with all of this and would just like to add that I think she is a playmaker. I think not only is she great, but she makes her lineys shine.