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2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread: Congrats to Meghan Duggan!

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  • #76
    Re: 2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread

    Originally posted by ARM View Post
    RStarr asked about all-time numbers. There are probably some huge totals for Granato and the like, but I don't have a source for those.
    Sorry to hijack the thread...

    I can't find totals for AJ, but according to the Patty Kaz site, its 200+....Re 1999, the year she won, "she easily eclipsed the previous single-season scoring mark for women’s ice hockey (89 points set by Cindy Schlaepher in (1976-77) and enters this weekend’s American Women’s College Hockey Alliance National Championship with 109 points (36-73) through 32 games."

    Brandy Fisher, 1998 and inaugural winner from UNH also had 200+..."She enters this weekend’s American Women’s College Hockey Alliance Division I National Ice Hockey Championship ranked second on the UNH all-time scoring list with 239 career points, including her school-record 128 goals."
    (where the heart beats)

    bleep.

    Comment


    • #77
      Re: 2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread

      Originally posted by ARM View Post
      That's an interesting topic. I question the use of "catch up" in this case, because that implies that the voters got it wrong and clearly should have given the award to Agosta in the past. No doubt, there are those that look just at stats or watch Agosta play all season who feel that way. However, there weren't many neutral observers at the 2009 Frozen Four that thought Kazmaier voters erred in their choice that season. Did you have a season in mind where the voters chose someone over Agosta where you feel hindsight revealed that was the wrong choice?
      Not catch up in the sense of she got jobbed another year, but more a cumulative "Career" award.

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by PrincetonFan View Post
        Not catch up in the sense of she got jobbed another year, but more a cumulative "Career" award.
        The Patty Kaz is not a career award though. Its for the best player in college hockey in a given year. Being secod best 3 times shouldnt be a factor.

        Maine Hockey: I want to believe
        43-21-4 (.662) in games I attended over 4 years as a student
        104-47-14 (.669) in that time
        3x FROZEN FOUR

        11-20-2 in games I've attended since. (2-2-1 under Red)

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        • #79
          Re: 2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread

          Originally posted by BoSox3066 View Post
          The Patty Kaz is not a career award though. Its for the best player in college hockey in a given year. Being secod best 3 times shouldnt be a factor.
          You're right, but my point is that human nature being what it is, this might influence the voting.

          Comment


          • #80
            Re: 2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread

            I'm just catching up with this thread. I was aware Irwin was injured and not playing. I meant to ask what her injury status was. I agree it was her absence and the Lams coming on strong that limit her candidacy. What I meant by my comment was that she'd still be a likely top 10 candidate if it were not for the Lams.

            And I agree over the years, UMD players have not done as well in the Kaz process as I would expect based on their merits.

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            • #81
              Re: 2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread

              The individual team media guides are the best place to get all-time scoring figures.

              There's nothing "unofficial" about statistics compiled before the 2000-2001 season, the first with an NCAA sponsored championship. People were very capable of compiling results prior to the NCAA's involvement in determining champions of the sport. I have no problem with individual organization's compiling records as they see fit, however. But certainly USA Hockey recognizes that the sport contested three national championships and awarded three Kazmaiers prior to 2000-2001 (all sponsored by USA Hockey).

              The 340 number for Botterill is correct. Shewchuk is 2nd with 307. Chu third with 284. Corriero 4th with 265. A.J. is fifth with 257. Though A.J. has Harvard's single-season record for points, she did not play on championship-caliber Harvard teams her first three years.

              EDIT: The above list is for Harvard's top five all-time leading scorers, not the all-time list for college hockey. Thanks to RStarr for pointing out that I did not make this clear.
              Last edited by dave1381; 02-09-2011, 10:41 PM.

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              • #82
                Re: 2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread

                Originally posted by ARM View Post
                There are probably some huge totals for Granato and the like, but I don't have a source for those.
                There aren't. I've looked into this before. Botterill is No. 1. It comes down to looking at the media guides for the Ivies and UNH/Providence/Northeastern & Minnesota & UMD. Carisa Zaban is UNH's all-time scoring leader, 263 points.

                I believe Gretchen Ulion was the only pre-NCAA player to crack 300 points
                http://www.dartmouthsports.com/ViewA...CLID=204920214

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                • #83
                  Re: 2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread

                  Originally posted by RStarr View Post
                  Don't worry, the Kaz crew won't pick Agosta, for they are simply too square.
                  Well personally I think simply giving the award to the player with the most points is the square thing to do. Why have a committee then?

                  These are the Kazmaier criteria:
                  Selection criteria includes outstanding individual and team skills, sportsmanship, performance in the clutch, personal character, competitiveness and a love of hockey. Consideration is also given to academic achievement and civic involvement.
                  Do you think Meghan Agosta is the player who best satisfies these criteria this year?

                  To the extent I've looked at the question, I do not consider her to be the leading candidate relative to either Duggan or Knight. Her team has not been as successful. She did not score as many clutch points in Mercyhurst's biggest games this season.

                  I'm always interested in comments as to the leading candidates' two-way performance. I remember I defended Agosta against Hux a few seasons back, who based his assessment on games he saw against Providence, but the stats clearly showed these were her worst of the season, and it was unfair to judge her solely on these games.

                  I don't think the points Agosta compiled against Brown compared to the points Duggan and Knight put up against St. Cloud will matter much in deciding the award.

                  I don't think the fact Agosta will set an NCAA record will matter much. As others have said it's not a career achievement award.

                  I think Agosta's best year in terms of satisfying the Kaz criteria was her freshman year. Unfortunately for her, Bauer and Chu also had outstanding seasons on and off the ice. I think the big factors distinguishing Chu that year were her consistency (she had a point in every game before the vote) and +/- best on the Harvard team by far, though Agosta was on a more successful team overall. And Bauer probably had the best year overall once conference and NCAA tournament play are taking into account. This season Duggan has been the most consistent scorer, though her team record point streak was just snapped.

                  Personally, I was rooting for Agosta to win this year. I do feel deeply sorry for her if she becomes a 4-time top 3 finalist and never wins, especially with this last ceremony being held at Mercyhurst. But I don't see at this moment how she is the most deserving candidate given the criterion for the award.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Re: 2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread

                    Having known Ms. Kazmaier, I definitely would agree that the square answer would not necessarily be the right one. Originally, at least one member of the selection committee also knew her, although it’s probably not enormously relevant at this point, as the award has developed a history and character of its own.

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                    • #85
                      Re: 2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread

                      That's an interesting point, comefrombehind. Whoever determined the criteria for the Kazmaier did a good job writing instructions that gave the award a distinct identity from the MVPs, Player of the Years, Humanitarians, and Academic All-Americans. It is a unique hybrid in college sports, and the history has played some role in shaping how much weight to give to the academics and leadership vs. on-ice performance (though I suspect there'd be a general agreement even in the absence of the history). It's clear the Kaz doesn't go to the best junior or senior with a straight A average, or simply the top scorer, but when top players with years of outstanding academic credentials have been in contention, like Bauer or Chu or Bendus, it has helped them. Whereas if it were just a straight conventional Player of the Year award, you'd probably have given closer consideration to Agosta or Raty in their respective freshman seasons, to give recent examples. So bottom line is I think the original criteria set for the award matters much more for the award's character & outcome than current committees being influenced by the precedent of past committees, or the committee makeup in any given year.
                      Last edited by dave1381; 02-08-2011, 04:14 PM.

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                      • #86
                        Re: 2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread

                        Originally posted by dave1381 View Post
                        Philip-Poulin and Wakefield have both cooled off a bit. Stack is making a strong case. This Beanpot game Tuesday could be decisive. It's the last of 4 games between the teams but coming so close to the voting it'll be important. Also I notice Stack has a large lead in Hockey East scoring. To the extent coaches may value conference play, that could give Stack an edge in the 10 race.
                        This is about what I thought would happen -- Stack figuring on all of BC's points against BU, and BC winning despite being outshot with Schaus in net.

                        BC's really picked things up after that bad loss to Providence Jan. 21. I've got to move Schaus to top 10 lock status now, and Stack inside the bubble.

                        So here's where I think the 10 race stands now

                        Locks:
                        F Duggan, Knight, Agosta, Bendus
                        D Fortino
                        G Raty, Schaus

                        Bubble (in):
                        F Stack, JLam, MLam-Kolls

                        Bubble (out):
                        F Philip-Poulin, Irwin, Wakefield

                        Still a couple weeks left, and those elite forwards are all pretty close. I think Stack has firmly established herself as the top Kaz forward candidate in Hockey East. If Philip-Poulin makes the 10, it'll be bumping a Lam.

                        Looking ahead though, UND has a brutal schedule (Minnesota & Wisconsin), and BU has a relatively soft schedule (a slightly-above average Northeastern team and a below-average Maine team). So this was pretty much the last chance for the BU forwards to distinguish themselves. I'd predict the Lams will play well enough next two weekends so that their making the 10 cut is not in doubt.

                        Maybe there's some chance I'm overestimating Bendus' reputation by calling her a top 10 lock, but if you look at her clutch contributions to the win over Cornell, and the academic criterion, I don't think there's any way the 2010 Kaz winner gets left out.

                        Philip-Poulin has the strong recognition from the Olympics and a strong start to the season, but it looks to me like she'll just miss. (trying to read today's Daily Free Press article to found out why she was out today but site appears to be down.... ) (EDIT: BU Today reporting upper body injury from Saturday's game kept her out)
                        Last edited by dave1381; 02-08-2011, 11:22 PM.

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                        • #87
                          uh, duh.

                          Originally posted by dave1381 View Post
                          Well personally I think simply giving the award to the player with the most points is the square thing to do. Why have a committee then?
                          Hey Dave, get some glasses, eh?

                          Where in my post did I say that Agosta deserved to win simply because she has scored the most points?

                          I didn't. I said that it should be a FACTOR, among other things.

                          You people are idiots. You LOVE to down play everything Agosta does while at the same time over exaggerating things other players do (and then try to pretend its not glaringly obvious). Its a year after year discussion. Same ****, different day. Get a new argument already. Or, why don't you just admit you don't like Agosta and we can move on.

                          And since when are random media guides the end all be all to official stats? They aren't any more official than what the individual school says the stats are. Speaking of which, you can go ahead and correct your post. Chu was in third. Now Agosta is. Give a little respect where respect is due.

                          The only "squares" are you block heads. *****http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/2773/stooges.gif******
                          (where the heart beats)

                          bleep.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Re: uh, duh.

                            Originally posted by RStarr View Post
                            Where in my post did I say that Agosta deserved to win simply because she has scored the most points? I didn't. I said that it should be a FACTOR, among other things.
                            Yes, you say total points is only a factor, and then you don't say what the other factors are. Instead you just insult people. I am sincerely interested in hearing you tell me what some of the other factors are. Please do.

                            You people are idiots. You LOVE to down play everything Agosta does while at the same time over exaggerating things other players do (and then try to pretend its not glaringly obvious). Its a year after year discussion. Same ****, different day. Get a new argument already.
                            No, I think every year has been different.

                            Or, why don't you just admit you don't like Agosta and we can move on.
                            No, because it's not true.

                            And since when are random media guides the end all be all to official stats? They aren't any more official than what the individual school says the stats are. Speaking of which, you can go ahead and correct your post. Chu was in third. Now Agosta is. Give a little respect where respect is due.
                            You're right my post was misleading, sorry. I was citing Harvard's all-time leading scorers from the Harvard media guide. I will add a clarification. Team media guides are the authoritative source for their own institution, as the NCAA is only recognizing stats 2000-01 onwards.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Re: 2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread

                              Poulin will be out for the rest of the regular season so her chances are probably slim at this point.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Re: 2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread

                                Haley Irwin won't be traveling to Ohio State with the Bulldogs for this weekend's series, so any talk of her and the Kaz is moot at this point. These two games will make it nine she's missed due to injury this season and eight straight games. Nuts. Not about the Kaz, but about her not being able to play.

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