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View Full Version : 2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread: Congrats to Meghan Duggan!



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PrincetonFan
02-06-2011, 10:31 AM
I defer to all of your collective knowledge on who should win this award; I haven't seen any of the top candidates, aside from those on Cornell (when I saw BC play Stack and Schaus weren't there).

But, as an observer of many sports and the voting for their various awards, I wonder if Agosta, should she make the final three, could possibly lose. She would then be a finalist for all four of her years and, human nature being what it is, would voters be emotionally swayed toward voting for her? A lot of voters for awards, whether they're for sports or for entertainment, engage in a kind of "catch up" mentality. I can imagine some voters would feel bad to have Agosta have to sit through one of these ceremonies a fourth time without winning the thing. If the statistics are close, and no other player is far and away the obvious choice, does Agosta get a leg up out of sentiment? (and I see that Agosta is leading the nation in scoring)

I hasten to add that I'm not saying Agosta should or should not win, just making an observation, and wondering whether the voters will be able to put aside such emotion.

ARM
02-06-2011, 12:05 PM
A lot of voters for awards, whether they're for sports or for entertainment, engage in a kind of "catch up" mentality. ... If the statistics are close, and no other player is far and away the obvious choice, does Agosta get a leg up out of sentiment? (and I see that Agosta is leading the nation in scoring)That's an interesting topic. I question the use of "catch up" in this case, because that implies that the voters got it wrong and clearly should have given the award to Agosta in the past. No doubt, there are those that look just at stats or watch Agosta play all season who feel that way. However, there weren't many neutral observers at the 2009 Frozen Four that thought Kazmaier voters erred in their choice that season. Did you have a season in mind where the voters chose someone over Agosta where you feel hindsight revealed that was the wrong choice?

RStarr
02-06-2011, 12:38 PM
I want Agosta to win (badly). In the last four seasons (and we aren't done yet) she's put up 289 points (curious to know where she stands among all time players, only one close I can think of is Chu). In her worst season, she still scored more points than Duggan did in her best season. I'll agree that points are only a part the equation, just like conference strength.

Meghan's been a beast all four years of college. Wouldn't it be awful to be a top three each of the 4 years but never the top candidate?


With that said, I don't think the Kaz committee will throw out any surprises. http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/2139/yawncm.gif

ARM
02-06-2011, 12:52 PM
I want Agosta to win (badly). In the last four seasons (and we aren't done yet) she's put up 289 points (curious to know where she stands among all time players, only one close I can think of is Chu).Darwitz had 246 points in three seasons (99 games, Agosta's played 128) and got only one top 3 finish. Chu had 284 in 129 games.

RStarr
02-06-2011, 12:59 PM
Darwitz had 246 points in three seasons (99 games, Agosta's played 128) and got only one top 3 finish.
Whats that break down to in points per game?

And I've been mad at Kaz committee about Nat. I think the committee sucks (hence the 'no surprises' comment). Its probably made up of a bunch of brookyones. http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/860/lamev.gif

ARM
02-06-2011, 01:04 PM
Whats that break down to in points per game?Darwitz is 2.48 PPG; Agosta currently at 2.26. Botterill might be the top, but I'll have to find her numbers.

ARM
02-06-2011, 01:11 PM
Potter had 327 pts in 134 games for 2.44 PPG.
Botterill had 340 pts in 113 games for 3.01 PPG.

BadgerFan11
02-06-2011, 01:20 PM
I want Agosta to win (badly). In the last four seasons (and we aren't done yet) she's put up 289 points (curious to know where she stands among all time players, only one close I can think of is Chu). In her worst season, she still scored more points than Duggan did in her best season. I'll agree that points are only a part the equation, just like conference strength.

Meghan's been a beast all four years of college. Wouldn't it be awful to be a top three each of the 4 years but never the top candidate?


With that said, I don't think the Kaz committee will throw out any surprises. http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/2139/yawncm.gif

in regard to Agosta points... refer to post from 2 weeks ago on this thread. a significant percentage of those points come against weak teams. piling up 5 points for 'Hurst while beating a 2 win team by 8 goals doesn't necessarily signify a kaz winner IMO. giving the award to the top point scorer based on points only is overlooking the true nature of the award.

RStarr
02-06-2011, 01:22 PM
Potter had 327 pts in 134 games for 2.44 PPG.
Botterill had 340 pts in 113 games for 3.01 PPG.
That' s out of control! I wonder about AJ Mleczko....

RStarr
02-06-2011, 01:30 PM
in regard to Agosta points... refer to post from 2 weeks ago on this thread. a significant percentage of those points come against weak teams. piling up 5 points for 'Hurst while beating a 2 win team by 8 goals doesn't necessarily signify a kaz winner IMO. giving the award to the top point scorer based on points only is overlooking the true nature of the award.
If you read my post, you'll notice I said points are "only part of the equation, just like conference strength."

While I give Duggan props for playing in "the toughest conference ever known to women's hockey", Duggan has plenty of opportunity to rack up the points against more than few teams in the WCHA.

Don't worry, the Kaz crew won't pick Agosta, for they are simply too square.

hurstfan87
02-06-2011, 02:02 PM
Potter had 327 pts in 134 games for 2.44 PPG.
Botterill had 340 pts in 113 games for 3.01 PPG.

Where did you get these numbers. Agosta just passed Julie Chu for most points all time with 289 points. Chu had the record at 285. I think that Agosta will have 300 points and also the record for most goals. She's only 2 goals from breaking that record to.

RStarr
02-06-2011, 02:12 PM
Where did you get these numbers. Agosta just passed Julie Chu for most points all time with 289 points. Chu had the record at 285. I think that Agosta will have 300 points and also the record for most goals. She's only 2 goals from breaking that record to.
I was wondering the same. USCHO has Potter @ 163 points through 70 games (2.33) and Jennifer @ 190 points through 62 games (3.06).


Are the other points coming into play before official records were kept (late 90s?). oh, and USCHO is not generally known for accuracy.

RStarr
02-06-2011, 02:15 PM
Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jennifer_Botterill) has Jennifer listed as the NC$$ leader in points @ 319. As I suggested, some points were before official records.

So unofficially Jennifer is leader. Officially Julie was....until Agosta passed her.

skatefast
02-06-2011, 02:21 PM
You really need to come around more often, RStarr. You're a breath of fresh air. :)

ARM
02-06-2011, 02:35 PM
Where did you get these numbers. Agosta just passed Julie Chu for most points all time with 289 points. Chu had the record at 285. I think that Agosta will have 300 points and also the record for most goals. She's only 2 goals from breaking that record to.Botterill's are from collegehockeystats. In the case of Potter, they are her UMD numbers for 3 seasons plus the numbers from her frosh season at Minnesota. Agosta most likely holds the record in total points during the NCAA era. Players like Potter and Botterill played some seasons before the NCAA started compiling records in 2000-2001, and RStarr asked about all-time numbers. There are probably some huge totals for Granato and the like, but I don't have a source for those.


I was wondering the same. USCHO has Potter @ 163 points through 70 games (2.33) and Jennifer @ 190 points through 62 games (3.06).


Are the other points coming into play before official records were kept (late 90s?). oh, and USCHO is not generally known for accuracy.They probably only show NCAA numbers. The numbers for a player like Botterill will probably vary based on what games are considered exhibitions and excluded.


Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jennifer_Botterill) has Jennifer listed as the NC$$ leader in points @ 319. As I suggested, some points were before official records.

So unofficially Jennifer is leader. Officially Julie was....until Agosta passed her.

RStarr
02-06-2011, 03:33 PM
RStarr asked about all-time numbers. There are probably some huge totals for Granato and the like, but I don't have a source for those.
Sorry to hijack the thread...

I can't find totals for AJ, but according to the Patty Kaz site (http://www.usahockey.com/patty_kazmaier/default.aspx?NAV=AF_08_07&id=215474&DetailedNews=yes), its 200+....Re 1999, the year she won, "she easily eclipsed the previous single-season scoring mark for women’s ice hockey (89 points set by Cindy Schlaepher in (1976-77) and enters this weekend’s American Women’s College Hockey Alliance National Championship with 109 points (36-73) through 32 games."

Brandy Fisher (http://www.usahockey.com/patty_kazmaier/default.aspx?NAV=AF_08_08&id=215476&DetailedNews=yes), 1998 and inaugural winner from UNH also had 200+..."She enters this weekend’s American Women’s College Hockey Alliance Division I National Ice Hockey Championship ranked second on the UNH all-time scoring list with 239 career points, including her school-record 128 goals."

PrincetonFan
02-06-2011, 03:38 PM
That's an interesting topic. I question the use of "catch up" in this case, because that implies that the voters got it wrong and clearly should have given the award to Agosta in the past. No doubt, there are those that look just at stats or watch Agosta play all season who feel that way. However, there weren't many neutral observers at the 2009 Frozen Four that thought Kazmaier voters erred in their choice that season. Did you have a season in mind where the voters chose someone over Agosta where you feel hindsight revealed that was the wrong choice?

Not catch up in the sense of she got jobbed another year, but more a cumulative "Career" award.

BoSox3066
02-06-2011, 07:34 PM
Not catch up in the sense of she got jobbed another year, but more a cumulative "Career" award.

The Patty Kaz is not a career award though. Its for the best player in college hockey in a given year. Being secod best 3 times shouldnt be a factor.

PrincetonFan
02-06-2011, 09:11 PM
The Patty Kaz is not a career award though. Its for the best player in college hockey in a given year. Being secod best 3 times shouldnt be a factor.

You're right, but my point is that human nature being what it is, this might influence the voting.

dave1381
02-07-2011, 12:06 PM
I'm just catching up with this thread. I was aware Irwin was injured and not playing. I meant to ask what her injury status was. I agree it was her absence and the Lams coming on strong that limit her candidacy. What I meant by my comment was that she'd still be a likely top 10 candidate if it were not for the Lams.

And I agree over the years, UMD players have not done as well in the Kaz process as I would expect based on their merits.