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View Full Version : 2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread: Congrats to Meghan Duggan!



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WHKY blogger
03-10-2011, 09:50 PM
no excuses. their best isnt good enough anymore. either be committed to the sport or get the hell on already.

the NC$$ is money grubby and USAHockey is lazy....bright future for womens hockey.

You forgot that HockeyCanada is slowly following suite.... Sad..

vellnueve
03-10-2011, 10:02 PM
Meh... as expected a ton of disrespect for Stack. I think she wants the other trophy anyways.

brookyone
03-10-2011, 10:11 PM
Meh... as expected a ton of disrespect for Stack. I think she wants the other trophy anyways.

I'm guessing she has company among her fellow candidates in that regard.

granddaddyscout
03-10-2011, 10:14 PM
Shocking!!! Can't believe you'd pick a WCHA player above the others.....Amazing!

Just happens to be where the best candidate played this time around. She is from Massachusetts if that helps any. It not like I am going way out on a limp here, I would love to hear your perspective on how she isn't the best qualified. This award is about being much more than a great offensive player or a great hockey player and I think Duggan is both of those as well. But, if you read through the criteria and you know much about Duggan she simply meets the criteria amazingly well.

IceIsNice
03-10-2011, 10:28 PM
Look, we're splitting hairs here. To be even a top 10 finalist, you have to be a rather outsanding player / person / student etc I'd have no issue with Duggan being the overall winner. I just can't resist poking a little joust your way since your pontifications based on predisposition seem to inhibit you from generating a more objective, more astute assessment. It's gotten to the point where I see your name appear on a thread, and all I can picture is some dumb jock screaming "yeah man, WCHA, man!"

dave1381
03-10-2011, 11:45 PM
I am not sure what is behind the petitioners thought process.. I believe you can e-mail her if you click on the petition..

With all due respect, I hoped you would have your own thought process about the petition before posting it in this thread, with the instruction "sign this petition."


The biggest injustice and the turning point for me in no longer being able to follow its progress was the debacle in 2009 where Vetter was given the honor over Lawler who by far met more of the criteria IMHO than any of the other ten finalists. In fact for the #1 player ever in the game to never win this award clearly shows that something is wrong with the process here.. right?

Ok, thanks for at least giving us something tangible to talk about. We'll talk about Lawler, and we'll talk about Knight too, whose omission is presumably what motivated the petition.

To do well in the Kazmaier voting once you've reached the top 10, you really need (1) a strong endorsement from your coach (2) a strong endorsement from the coaches in your league who happen to be on the committee -- that's 2 coaches for the WCHA. And by strong, I mean they're stronger than the endorsements coming from other coaches and other leagues. That's particularly true for someone like Lawler who didn't have the profile of a typical Kazmaier candidate on paper.

Lawler was also competing against 2 teammates, and Knight was competing against Duggan. If you look at Duggan's endorsement from Mark, which I believe I posted somewhere earlier on this thread, it's full of language that suggests he believes he deserves to win the award. He obviously says a lot of nice things about Knight too, but nothing that's as strong in terms of meeting the Kazmaier criteria. IMHO, Mark wrote the ideal endorsements for a coach endorsing Duggan for the award while still endorsing Knight for the top 3.

The struggle for Knight is she's also competing for top 3 status against some leading candidates from other leagues. As I suggested earlier in the post, it's simply going to be harder for the 2nd-best candidate on any team to compete against strong endorsements from candidates like Agosta and Stack who have dominated their respective leagues from start to finish. There hasn't been a league with 2 representatives in the top 3 since 2006.

I don't have much more to say about the Lawler case. I don't recall if Mark's statements on the 2009 Kaz candidates were publicly released. But again, if the selection of Vetter over Lawler was a massive failure of the process, it starts with the coach's endorsement and the endorsement of the league coaches on the committee.

One final comment -- and I'm not implying this is true of the "snubs" just discussed -- fans for the most part do not have the same access to the candidate academic stats that the coaches and the committee get, though fans can infer to some extent from league All-Academic honors. That can lead to what appear to be snubs, particular when candidates are close. Past winners Bauer and Bendus were extraordinary students, and Vetter was a good student. For the record, Stack is also a good student.

I hope this helps you better understand the Kazmaier voting process, and if you have any suggestions for improving it, please share.

WHKY blogger
03-11-2011, 08:06 AM
With all due respect, I hoped you would have your own thought process about the petition before posting it in this thread, with the instruction "sign this petition."



Ok, thanks for at least giving us something tangible to talk about. We'll talk about Lawler, and we'll talk about Knight too, whose omission is presumably what motivated the petition.


Who are you to tell anybody what to believe?

I am intimately aware of the process that goes into this award.

I feel that I stated my position on this petition very clearly. How am I suppose to know what motivated someone else to start this?

I only passed it on in the interest of what is right and in the hopes of restoring some honor to what use to be an award and not a joke.

For you to simply dismiss me makes you the joke.

dave1381
03-11-2011, 08:37 AM
Who are you to tell anybody what to believe?
I don't believe I ever did so. You have a right to your opinion.


I feel that I stated my position on this petition very clearly. How am I suppose to know what motivated someone else to start this?
You stated some general thoughts on the Kaz outcome.

But when you tell people to sign a petition, it's understood that you're endorsing all the language in that petition - at least that's my understanding of how petitions work. So I was asking how you interpreted some of that language. But if you have nothing else to add there, so be it.



For you to simply dismiss me makes you the joke.

I'm not sure how I'm dismissing you. I thought I wrote a few lengthy posts describing what I thought of the process and my interpretation of the process, and I'm legitimately interested in what you think is wrong with the process (as opposed to the outcomes), and how you would suggest improving the process.

I will dismiss though if you resort to personal insults like above - I only have so much patience. But I'd be happy to continue a polite discussion with you.

dave1381
03-11-2011, 08:47 AM
Also, the petition appears to have been taken down.

ARM
03-11-2011, 09:15 AM
I feel that I stated my position on this petition very clearly. How am I suppose to know what motivated someone else to start this?

I only passed it on in the interest of what is right and in the hopes of restoring some honor to what use to be an award and not a joke.

For you to simply dismiss me makes you the joke.In my opinion, both the petition and your suggestion of it are lacking in detailed support. I hesitate to ask for that support, I really do, because I'm afraid it is just going to lead to a discussion where some kids get trashed unnecessarily and to no purpose.

I one hundred percent get why you think Lawler is great; I really do. She had a fire and a passion for the game that came out on every shift, and she brought that out in those around her as well. Off ice, she certainly did nothing to hurt her cause. What hurt her in the Kaz voting was that she was a Wisconsin forward in an era when the Badgers had a ton of top-end talent up front. Bauer (while not a national-team player, clearly of that caliber) and Zaugg, Duggan, and Knight, all of whom went on to be US Olympians. So when a fan or voter picks a favorite UW forward to champion, it will probably come down to styles and what that person likes in a player. Does one want a waterbug or a classic power forward? There isn't a right answer; it is all about styles.

Vetter, on the other hand, had an implicit endorsement from Coach Johnson. No matter what other goalies he had on the roster, she was always between the pipes with the season on the line, and she came through 11 out of 12 times. From your posts over the years, you obviously would have preferred that Lawler had won at Vetter's expense. Many people feel differently, myself included.

At this point, what would Erika Lawler want? Would she want this petition to gain steam? Would she want discussions to take place where those honored over the years are criticized? From comments she made to me on the record while a Badger, I don't believe that. She had the opportunity to play in the national title game each year of her career, and I'm sure that was far more important to her than who took home any individual award.

BadgerFan11
03-11-2011, 09:28 AM
Sign this petition:

http://www.petitionfree.com/petition/immediate-suspension-of-the-awarding-of-the-patty-kazmaier-memorial-award-by-usa-hockey/222

looking forward to a petition that outlaws the stupidity inherent in this above petition

not having your candidate win is an extremely selfish reason to outlaw this incredibly prestigious award.Should we outlaw the Heisman because Reggie Bush was found in violation and gave his back? i have yet to see such a rediculous request
Many of the finest womens athletes that this country (and canada) has to offer have won this award and wear that honor proudly. you're essentially laughing in the face of their accomplishments. i would love to hear past winners comment on this award and tell us how they really feel about such a petition, but knowing many of them, they would reserve comment because they have more class than whoever created this.
shame on whoever made this

granddaddyscout
03-11-2011, 09:59 AM
Look, we're splitting hairs here. To be even a top 10 finalist, you have to be a rather outsanding player / person / student etc I'd have no issue with Duggan being the overall winner. I just can't resist poking a little joust your way since your pontifications based on predisposition seem to inhibit you from generating a more objective, more astute assessment. It's gotten to the point where I see your name appear on a thread, and all I can picture is some dumb jock screaming "yeah man, WCHA, man!"
No hurt feelings here, believe me. I am a fan of Women's hockey first and the WCHA 2nd. It just so happens that this season I think the WCHA is extremely strong this year and I think they have the best PK candidate. I can honestly say I would have no problem supporting a PK candidate from outside the WCHA. Seriously you will find me to be pretty objective over time, I just think this has been an unusual year and the WCHA has gotten much less respect than it deserved. Given that Mark Johnson and Brad Frost share most of my sentiments I feel I am in good company. The East has a lot of great elements like close rivalries, the Bean Pot, classic venues, etc... and a lot of great players. Believe me, I do not have blind loyalty to the WCHA. Just a willingness to speak my mind when I think something needs to be said.

WHKY blogger
03-11-2011, 10:04 AM
looking forward to a petition that outlaws the stupidity inherent in this above petition

not having your candidate win is an extremely selfish reason to outlaw this incredibly prestigious award.

Again I dont think the petitioner is after any specific canidates, they are after the process which is about more than who puts up the most stats..

Of course their is going to be some people that dont agree..

While I doubt anyone that wins or not would publicly say anything to discredit the other players, I am sure when you dont win and you feel you should have you too would be mad at the process as well.

FlyingPig
03-11-2011, 10:49 AM
There is nothing wrong with the award. The petition seems like a childish idea.
I will say this though. The logic of not caring about who's in final 3 as long as the winner is in the group is flawed. After all, being final 3 still carries a prestige.
What's more laughable is snubbing the 2nd or 3rd best player in college just because she is the second best on her team. No disrespect to Stack as she served her team and her country well, but knight clearly had a superior performance this season.
Even with the illogical process, the award should go on, and petition seems pretty pointless. The spirit of the award is intact despite the flaws.

And yes, I will stand by my comment even if the committee picks Stack to win the award. It'd obviously cheapen the whole idea, but weighing the alternatives, I would still support the award.

dave1381
03-11-2011, 12:03 PM
The logic of not caring about who's in final 3 as long as the winner is in the group is flawed. After all, being final 3 still carries a prestige.
I think everyone cares about the final three. I do think the process worked against Knight. I just don't think there's really a better solution.


What's more laughable is snubbing the 2nd or 3rd best player in college just because she is the second best on her team. No disrespect to Stack as she served her team and her country well, but knight clearly had a superior performance this season. Even with the illogical process,
Reasonable people can differ on that comparison. It's still a very strong Kaz 3 field with 3 regular season and tournament MVPs. We don't always have 3 players so accomplished within their leagues. Had Stack not had such a clutch Hockey East tourney, in a weekend when BC could win home ice or be out altogether, then I don't think she'd have made the 3. You can make a strong case for Knight too, but I don't think it's laughable that Stack made this cut.

FlyingPig
03-11-2011, 01:31 PM
I don't think it's laughable that Stack made this cut.

Not at all......who makes final 3 is any one's guess, I was definitely not suggesting that it's laughable for Stack to make the cut. I'm sure we can make a case for any of the 3 especially when the decision might have been reached in the minds of the voters before the conference tournaments. I was merely suggesting that the idea of staging the final 3 is illogical and foul.
I also implied that wanting to stage the final 3, no matter how illogical, is human nature. It just happens.

dave1381
03-11-2011, 02:15 PM
Ok. And of course the All-American Teams are going to have pretty much the same problem. I expect the outcome will be pretty much the same, since I presume there each coach gets a vote, so it'll be tough for the second-best player in the WCHA to make First Team when there's also a solid Hockey East and CHA candidate.

FlyingPig
03-11-2011, 02:58 PM
All american teams are expected to have the normalization problems. After all, they are still kinda just kids. Equal opportunity still trumps absolute in certain cases. I would expect less of the problem if "press" gets a shot at it. But seriously, how are we going to find enough "press folks" following enough women's hockey game to vote. I'll settle for coach voted teams.
Forget about All American Teams......don't even get me started on the bracket;)

ARM
03-11-2011, 03:01 PM
But seriously, how are we going to find enough "press folks" following enough women's hockey game to vote. I'll settle for coach voted teams.That's the good thing about the all-conference teams -- the voting is done by coaches that at least watched the players compete during that season.

brookyone
03-11-2011, 05:50 PM
A short article, perhaps to function as a friendly little reminder to appropriately appreciate all the athletes on the ice and what they do for their own enjoyment, as well as that of the fans.

http://www.letsplayhockey.com/1037tearse.html