2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread: Congrats to Meghan Duggan!

[taxicab]

Re: 2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread: 26 NOMINEES ANNOUNCED

This may sound a little crazy but, I think that an additional variable needs to be considered in regards to who the nominees are, PIM. Not only the # of PEN but the actual PIM as well.
For example there are 5 nominees with close to 50 PIM each playing around 30 games. One player has 17 PEN with 50 PIM. You do the math. That means that
player has received something other then 2 min. penalties. I think the purpose would be two fold. First to uphold the integrity of what the award stands for
and second to help clean up the game. Players who hurt other players need to be held accountable. The women's game is a thing of beauty in my eyes. It is a game in which
checking is not allowed. When a player is allowed to play cheap or dirty they are not only putting their opponents in harms way they are challenging the beauty of the women's game.
Changing it from a skill game to watch out for your back game. There have been way too many broken bones, back, shoulders and head injuries etc..... Don't get me wrong I know
this is not ping pong it is a physical game and that part of it is fine. I am talking about the cheap hits from behind, slew foots, blows to the head etc..... Cheap players should not be
awarded/nominees they should be held accountable. How about this food for thought, any player that causes an injury requiring a player to be out of the game on a cheap hit should have to take
the same amount of time off as the recovering player. Now I know that is absurd but, think about how many times a player might think before they hit, checked, punched etc...

[dave1381]

Re: uh, duh.

This may sound a little crazy but, I think that an additional variable needs to be considered in regards to who the nominees are, PIM. Not only the # of PEN but the actual PIM as well.
For example there are 5 nominees with close to 50 PIM each playing around 30 games.

Not crazy at all -- I actually completely agree with you that PIMs should be considered. They're certainly a negative impact on team success.

I don't think 11-19 penalties for the season is anything to be alarmed about, but JLam has 44 Pen, 96 PIM -- just way more than any of the other candidates. MLam-Kolls with 23 Pen, 46 PIM is also up there.

I think there's still room for one Lam in the top 10, but I would hope coaches would consider that when contrasting them with someone else on the Kaz 10 bubble like Bendus, who has only 4 Pen, 8 PIM.

I don't think there's a significant enough difference between the leading candidates: Agosta, Knight, Duggan for the PIM to make a difference there.

One year where this issue definitely came up before was 2004 with Ruggiero.

I believe it also comes down to their situation. Duggan is the leading scorer in what is viewed as the best women's league in the world. She faced more top ten teams this year than Agosta, and faced some of the best female goalies around.

I agree with you on Duggan, but I support her not simply because she plays in the WCHA, but because she was consistently successful in those games against top 10 teams.

[Hux]

Re: 2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread

I think both Stack and Schaus will make it because although BC would probably still be a good team, I really don't think they would be in the top 10 without those two. Granted this can be said for a lot of players on different teams, if you look at BC's results, you'll notice that Stack has had the GT or GW goal in many games and especially as of late, BC's offensive has been stagnant but have still been able to win because Schaus only lets up a goal at most each game.

She may have many game tying or winning goals, but too many times she was MIA for the first 57 minutes of a game.

[granddaddyscout]

Re: uh, duh.

I agree with you on Duggan, but I support her not simply because she plays in the WCHA, but because she was consistently successful in those games against top 10 teams.[/QUOTE]

The other things about Duggan are;
1. She never seems to quit or take a shift off. She goes hard late in the 3rd when they are up 9-0, dives to block passes or catch a player from behind long after the victory is sealed.

2. She works harder of defense than she does on offense and if often goes un-noticed because she is so strong in the O-zone.

3. She is a fabulous leader and role model on the ice, in the room, and away from hockey. When you talk to people close to the UW program they just can't compliment her enough in those areas.

I think she really has stepped up in so many ways this year. Agosta and Knight are great as well, but Duggan seems to be special. l

[skatefast]

Re: uh, duh.

The other things about Duggan are;
1. She never seems to quit or take a shift off. She goes hard late in the 3rd when they are up 9-0, dives to block passes or catch a player from behind long after the victory is sealed.

2. She works harder of defense than she does on offense and if often goes un-noticed because she is so strong in the O-zone.

3. She is a fabulous leader and role model on the ice, in the room, and away from hockey. When you talk to people close to the UW program they just can't compliment her enough in those areas.

I think she really has stepped up in so many ways this year. Agosta and Knight are great as well, but Duggan seems to be special. l

I agree with all of this and would just like to add that I think she is a playmaker. I think not only is she great, but she makes her lineys shine.

[Radar3535]

Re: 2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread

Just pics..don't take it personal.
If I had the goalie pic of my choice it would be Mandy Mazz without a doubt but she's injured and not playing as of yet for Cornell.
She epitomizes every aspect of what the PK award stands for.
In a word....Brilliant!

Dont take it personal.... but you are a homer !!!!Bauer over Schaus, come on. Let me guess ,your top three will hail from ...ehh?

[IceIsNice]

Re: 2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread

Dont take it personal.... but you are a homer !!!!Bauer over Schaus, come on. Let me guess ,your top three will hail from ...ehh?

Canada?

[JosephPSchmoe]

Re: 2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread

... but you are a homer!

Aren't we all homers?

[OnMAA]

Re: 2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread

Aren't we all homers?

Some just more blatant than others.

[dave1381]

Re: 2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread

Some of the Kazmaier discussion has taken some various views on Agosta's scoring numbers in comparison to Knight and Duggan. I'll summarize two views:
(1) Agosta's point total is so high that she clearly deserves the Kaz, no matter how you adjust for strength-of-schedule
(2) Agosta plays in the CHA so we should completely discount her numbers.

Does either of these views have more merit? (For the moment I'll ignore the issue of whether some of these players score mainly against weaker opponents, and other Kazmaier criteria)

The baseline numbers are that Agosta scores 2.57 ppg, Duggan 2.15 pgg, Kngiht 2.03 ppg. So Agosta scores 19.5% more ppg than Duggan and 26.6% more than Knight.

So how difficult are these points to come by? One measure we can look at it is the average goals allowed by Mercyhurst and Wisconsin's respective opponents. We know Wisconsin played a tougher schedule. Wisconsin's opponents allowed 2.89 goals per game, Mercyhurst's opponents allowed 3.00 goals per game -- only 3.5% more than Wisconsin. So this exercise alone would suggest that Agosta's higher point total isn't simply a matter of schedule strength.

HOWEVER, the previous exercise ignores the fact that Wisconsin's opponents played better offenses than Mercyhurst's opponents. We need some way to adjust for that. Fortunately Robin Locke at SLU estimates a statistical model where he determines an offensive and defensive parameter for each team. Based on these adjust numbers, Mercyhurst opponents average 2.81 goals against, Wisconsin's opponents average 2.39 goals against (if they were to play a league average schedule). Mercyhurt's opponents are then 17.6% easier to score on than Wisconsin's.

That accounts for almost all the scoring difference between Agosta and Duggan. If both players played league average schedules, the method suggests Agosta would have 2.26 ppg, and Duggan have 2.22.

So in conclusion, it'd be wrong to completely discount Agosta's candidacy due to the CHA, but it's not a whole order of magnitude above Duggan's performance either, and yet this is really the one criterion where Agosta would seem to have an advantage over Duggan.

[D2D]

Re: 2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread

Again comparing Agosta to Duggan, it is interesting to also look each player's respective contributions in terms of helping their teams prevent goals, i.e. which is a more effective two-way player.

Agosta's +/- is a very good +33. Mercyhurst has outscored their opponents 161-59, a differential of +102. As a percentage of the team's total, Agosta's is a very respectable 32%.

However Duggan's numbers are even better. She is a +61 on a team that has outscored their opponents 181-58 (+123). As a percentage she's very close to an amazing 50%. She obviously makes it a lot more difficult for the other team to score at even strength whenever she's on the ice.

Of course there are many other factors that go into these numbers, but I know of no better way to measure a player's defensive contributions, something coaches might appreciate more so than fans. Over the course of an entire season I would think the numbers mean something.

[mercyfan]

Re: 2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread: 26 NOMINEES ANNOUNCED

Those facts are all correct. I am a Mercyhurst fan who has watched many games. I agree that Agosta is a good player, but not Patty Kaz material. She is selfish and not a two way player at all.. if you look at the +/- of agosta vs stronger teams it is not very good. Against Wisconsin, she was scored on 6 of the 7 goals. Against Cornell the first game she was -3, with the Bendus, Bram, Bestland (3B's) getting all the points. In all close games that Mercyhurst has played this year this seems to be the trend. The 3B line stepping up while the Agosta Scanzano and Jones lines disappearing. This has to account for something? I think Bendus and Bram are gettin way overlooked. Agosta is an outstanding player.. in games that don't necessarily mean much.

[granddaddyscout]

Re: 2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread: 26 NOMINEES ANNOUNCED

Those facts are all correct. I am a Mercyhurst fan who has watched many games. I agree that Agosta is a good player, but not Patty Kaz material. She is selfish and not a two way player at all.. if you look at the +/- of agosta vs stronger teams it is not very good. Against Wisconsin, she was scored on 6 of the 7 goals. Against Cornell the first game she was -3, with the Bendus, Bram, Bestland (3B's) getting all the points. In all close games that Mercyhurst has played this year this seems to be the trend. The 3B line stepping up while the Agosta Scanzano and Jones lines disappearing. This has to account for something? I think Bendus and Bram are gettin way overlooked. Agosta is an outstanding player.. in games that don't necessarily mean much.

Ouch!!!! tell us how you really feel.

Not a big fan of focusing on the negative, I do think it is hard to find a more talented player as selfless as Duggan. I think Agosta and Knight probably have more "pure offensive hockey" talent, but Duggan really is the total package when you talk to coaches, teammates, former teammates, opposing players, etc... It really does seem hard to find detractors.

[dave1381]

Re: 2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread: 26 NOMINEES ANNOUNCED

I agree that Agosta is a good player, but not Patty Kaz material.

I agree with the general thrust of the comments but I think a few details are a bit unfair to Agosta.

if you look at the +/- of agosta vs stronger teams it is not very good.

True

Against Wisconsin, she was scored on 6 of the 7 goals.

Actually it was 5 of 7, and 3 of the first 5. Meghan scored to make it a 5-4 game, then Wisconsin added one more plus an empty netter. I'm not sure you really punish Meghan for being on the ice at the end of the game.

Against Cornell the first game she was -3

She was on the ice for all three Cornell goals. Technically it was -1 since one goal was PP and she was on the ice for Scanzano's game-winner.

with the Bendus, Bram, Bestland (3B's) getting all the points.

In regulation. Bendus in particular stood out with a +3 performance.

In all close games that Mercyhurst has played this year this seems to be the trend. The 3B line stepping up while the Agosta Scanzano and Jones lines disappearing. This has to account for something? I think Bendus and Bram are gettin way overlooked. Agosta is an outstanding player.. in games that don't necessarily mean much.

I generally agree that Agosta generally did not play well in the three toughest games Mercyhurst played. To attempt to be an Agosta apologist, I might think that (1) three is just a really small sample of games (2) she may have put too much pressure on herself those games, (3) perhaps the top teams just really focused on frustrating her whenever she was on the ice, and tried to let the Bendus line beat them

All that said, the other leading Kaz candidates were consistently successful even against the toughest opponents, so I do see these three games having a large negative impact on Agosta's candidacy.

[Hux]

Re: 2010-2011 Patty Kazmaier Thread: 26 NOMINEES ANNOUNCED

Ouch!!!! tell us how you really feel.

Not a big fan of focusing on the negative, I do think it is hard to find a more talented player as selfless as Duggan. I think Agosta and Knight probably have more "pure offensive hockey" talent, but Duggan really is the total package when you talk to coaches, teammates, former teammates, opposing players, etc... It really does seem hard to find detractors.

Bingo. I've seen Agosta play on several occasions over her career and I've not been impressed due to her dismal defensive play. I've seen Duggan play many times as well, and the two don't compare. Duggan is the better all-around player.