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  • Rules question: Too many men on ice.

    Here's the situation: A stoppage in play will result in a faceoff deep in Team A zone with 2 seconds remaining in the period. Team B goalie heads for the bench in favor of an extra attacker. The extra forward takes his place in the attacking zone, but the coach sends the goalie back out. All this has happened while play is dead.

    Before the linesman drops the puck, one of the other officials notices that Team B has too many men on the ice, and tells them somebody has to go back to the bench.

    Is this proper? Or should they have allowed play to begin then whisteled a penalty against Team B?
    Du hockey comme dans le temps!

  • #2
    Re: Rules question: Too many men on ice.

    Originally posted by Freddie View Post
    Here's the situation: A stoppage in play will result in a faceoff deep in Team A zone with 2 seconds remaining in the period. Team B goalie heads for the bench in favor of an extra attacker. The extra forward takes his place in the attacking zone, but the coach sends the goalie back out. All this has happened while play is dead.

    Before the linesman drops the puck, one of the other officials notices that Team B has too many men on the ice, and tells them somebody has to go back to the bench.

    Is this proper? Or should they have allowed play to begin then whisteled a penalty against Team B?
    Not sure about the too many men call with the clock stopped, but they could have slapped them with a delay of game penalty.
    'Eavesdropped the BC forum in USCHO. A range of intellects over there. Mostly gentlemen, but a couple of coarse imbeciles' - academic_index, a Brown fan

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    • #3
      Re: Rules question: Too many men on ice.

      Or at least kicked them out of the face-off and corrected the problem.

      I take it this happened during a game you followed? What was called by the referee?

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Rules question: Too many men on ice.

        Originally posted by Freddie View Post
        Here's the situation: A stoppage in play will result in a faceoff deep in Team A zone with 2 seconds remaining in the period. Team B goalie heads for the bench in favor of an extra attacker. The extra forward takes his place in the attacking zone, but the coach sends the goalie back out. All this has happened while play is dead.

        Before the linesman drops the puck, one of the other officials notices that Team B has too many men on the ice, and tells them somebody has to go back to the bench.

        Is this proper? Or should they have allowed play to begin then whisteled a penalty against Team B?
        That should be fairly commonplace. Delay of game is probably at the referee's discretion, but if one of the refs notices it, they shouldn't allow play to begin only to slap them with a penalty, as it just looks bad on the refs.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Rules question: Too many men on ice.

          The relevant rule, if you squint at it a little, is 2-5-b-5: "The official dropping the puck shall set the players and hold the puck at the beltline. When the players are legally set, the official shall drop the puck." Obviously, having too many players is not being "legally set," and so the linesman is not supposed to drop the puck if he sees that a team has too many players on the ice.

          This happens rather frequently--not with the goalie, but with an extra skater on the ice. If it doesn't seem to be an attempt to deceive or hold up the game, the ref won't call anything or will just give the offending team a warning.

          "The game of hockey, though much in vogue on the ice in New England and other parts of the United States, is not much known here."

          --The Montreal Gazette, March 4, 1875.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Rules question: Too many men on ice.

            Originally posted by Alton View Post
            The relevant rule, if you squint at it a little, is 2-5-b-5: "The official dropping the puck shall set the players and hold the puck at the beltline. When the players are legally set, the official shall drop the puck." Obviously, having too many players is not being "legally set," and so the linesman is not supposed to drop the puck if he sees that a team has too many players on the ice.

            This happens rather frequently--not with the goalie, but with an extra skater on the ice. If it doesn't seem to be an attempt to deceive or hold up the game, the ref won't call anything or will just give the offending team a warning.
            keep going, ssection k:
            "and, while
            the officials shall not begin play with extra players on either team, the
            responsibility of playing with the proper number rests with the teams."

            so, in NCAA hockey, they may call a minor for too many men.
            in USA hockey (Olympics), they may not.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Rules question: Too many men on ice.

              Originally posted by KnowItAll View Post
              keep going, section k:
              "and, while
              the officials shall not begin play with extra players on either team, the
              responsibility of playing with the proper number rests with the teams."

              so, in NCAA hockey, they may call a minor for too many men.
              Yes...can't believe I missed that. So--there's your answer, Freddie. It is a little hard to parse, but it seems to me that if the officials are aware of a team with an extra player, they are not supposed to drop the puck. If they are not aware and they do drop the puck, then they can call a penalty on the team with the extra player once they do notice it.

              I agree with hp1015 that it would look pretty bad for the linesman to drop the puck knowing there is an extra player and then immediately whistle a penalty.

              "The game of hockey, though much in vogue on the ice in New England and other parts of the United States, is not much known here."

              --The Montreal Gazette, March 4, 1875.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Rules question: Too many men on ice.

                Originally posted by KnowItAll View Post
                keep going, ssection k:
                "and, while
                the officials shall not begin play with extra players on either team, the
                responsibility of playing with the proper number rests with the teams."

                so, in NCAA hockey, they may call a minor for too many men.
                in USA hockey (Olympics), they may not.

                Actually the responsibility with dropping the puck with the proper amount of players (or fewer) rests with the officials. The words "shall" and "extra" are included for a reason. If it was the final responsibility of the coaches the word used would be "should", and there would not be a reference to any extra players. Further wording placing responsibility on the teams leaves room for officials to call delay of game or unsportsmanlike conduct penalties on a team or coach who deliberately flaunts the rule and delays putting a proper number of skaters on the ice, or fewer. A referee can, will, and should drop the puck if you do not have ENOUGH players on the ice after waiting a reasonable amount of time. I've seen it done.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Rules question: Too many men on ice.

                  Originally posted by Freddie View Post
                  Here's the situation: A stoppage in play will result in a faceoff deep in Team A zone with 2 seconds remaining in the period. Team B goalie heads for the bench in favor of an extra attacker. The extra forward takes his place in the attacking zone, but the coach sends the goalie back out. All this has happened while play is dead.

                  Before the linesman drops the puck, one of the other officials notices that Team B has too many men on the ice, and tells them somebody has to go back to the bench.

                  Is this proper? Or should they have allowed play to begin then whisteled a penalty against Team B?
                  That is proper, you can't asses as too many men on the ice penalty before play is started. Its the officials responsibility that the proper number of players are on the ice. However if they were suppose to have 5 and only had 4, that technically isn't the officials responsibility and play does not have to be stopped.

                  With that said, if a coach is doing that a Delay of Game penalty could be called because of all the changes and having the wrong number of players on the ice in that specific situation.
                  Miamiredhawks08: "Side note: have any of you had to wear a helmet in SLOW PITCH SOFTBALL CAGE?!?!?!?! Are you flipping kidding me?!?!?! Felt like a 30 year old wearing floaties in a wading pool! jeebus!"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Rules question: Too many men on ice.

                    Originally posted by KnowItAll View Post
                    keep going, ssection k:
                    "and, while
                    the officials shall not begin play with extra players on either team, the
                    responsibility of playing with the proper number rests with the teams."

                    so, in NCAA hockey, they may call a minor for too many men.
                    in USA hockey (Olympics), they may not.
                    Originally posted by Alton View Post
                    Yes...can't believe I missed that. So--there's your answer, Freddie. It is a little hard to parse, but it seems to me that if the officials are aware of a team with an extra player, they are not supposed to drop the puck. If they are not aware and they do drop the puck, then they can call a penalty on the team with the extra player once they do notice it.

                    I agree with hp1015 that it would look pretty bad for the linesman to drop the puck knowing there is an extra player and then immediately whistle a penalty.
                    wrong, the official can not drop the puck with a team having more than the allowed number of players on the ice. If they do it is their mistake and you cannot give a too many players on the ice penalty for an officials error. If you read the rule closely enough it says an official shall not drop the puck with extra players on the ice. It is the coaches responsibility to put the proper number of players on the ice but an official can not start play by dropping the puck with extra players on the ice.
                    Miamiredhawks08: "Side note: have any of you had to wear a helmet in SLOW PITCH SOFTBALL CAGE?!?!?!?! Are you flipping kidding me?!?!?! Felt like a 30 year old wearing floaties in a wading pool! jeebus!"

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Rules question: Too many men on ice.

                      This is one of the little neumerous things coaches do to get a few extra seconds of time. Esp if Team A is the home change with last change. Most of the time the ref won't call a delay of game penalty and just waits; or even better from the coaches prospective, wastes more time by talking to the coach about making faster changes.

                      With the goalie pulled and game on the line, giving the top players who have probably been playing for most of the last 5 mins a bit of extra time.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Rules question: Too many men on ice.

                        Originally posted by sbkbghockey View Post
                        This is one of the little neumerous things coaches do to get a few extra seconds of time. Esp if Team A is the home change with last change. Most of the time the ref won't call a delay of game penalty and just waits; or even better from the coaches prospective, wastes more time by talking to the coach about making faster changes.

                        With the goalie pulled and game on the line, giving the top players who have probably been playing for most of the last 5 mins a bit of extra time.

                        Your right, and it happens too often IMO. Your also right that the problem is most, not all, but most officials would never call a delay of game in that situation when in fact that would be the correct call. This situation has come up numerous times in officiating seminars. Problem is if the official hasn't given any warnings going into that situation it is hard to make a delay call without a warning. That is the common theme in the discussions, a warning must be given first, if one has already been given a delay of game penalty is warranted.
                        Miamiredhawks08: "Side note: have any of you had to wear a helmet in SLOW PITCH SOFTBALL CAGE?!?!?!?! Are you flipping kidding me?!?!?! Felt like a 30 year old wearing floaties in a wading pool! jeebus!"

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Rules question: Too many men on ice.

                          Originally posted by redhawkman10 View Post
                          wrong, the official can not drop the puck with a team having more than the allowed number of players on the ice. If they do it is their mistake and you cannot give a too many players on the ice penalty for an officials error. If you read the rule closely enough it says an official shall not drop the puck with extra players on the ice. It is the coaches responsibility to put the proper number of players on the ice but an official can not start play by dropping the puck with extra players on the ice.
                          We do not disagree; your point was the same as mine, but I took it one step further--what if the refs miscount and drop the puck anyway?

                          Of course, it's possible that they will make a mistake and drop the puck anyway, at which point they could whistle the penalty, but as you say the rule makes it clear that the officials are not to drop the puck if they detect either team has extra players on the ice.

                          "The game of hockey, though much in vogue on the ice in New England and other parts of the United States, is not much known here."

                          --The Montreal Gazette, March 4, 1875.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Rules question: Too many men on ice.

                            Originally posted by Alton View Post
                            We do not disagree; your point was the same as mine, but I took it one step further--what if the refs miscount and drop the puck anyway?

                            Of course, it's possible that they will make a mistake and drop the puck anyway, at which point they could whistle the penalty, but as you say the rule makes it clear that the officials are not to drop the puck if they detect either team has extra players on the ice.
                            When I've seen that happen, the refs blow the whistle as soon as they realize the error, reset the clock and drop the puck again from the same dot. I guess if they don't realize it was their mistake, assume someone snuck on the ice, that team will get screwed.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Rules question: Too many men on ice.

                              Originally posted by redhawkman10 View Post
                              Your right, and it happens too often IMO. Your also right that the problem is most, not all, but most officials would never call a delay of game in that situation when in fact that would be the correct call. This situation has come up numerous times in officiating seminars. Problem is if the official hasn't given any warnings going into that situation it is hard to make a delay call without a warning. That is the common theme in the discussions, a warning must be given first, if one has already been given a delay of game penalty is warranted.
                              USA officiating seminars? or NCAA?

                              the rules are not the same on this issue.

                              Comment

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