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nbound
11-09-2010, 12:27 PM
I agree that Trinity should not be there, with the losses in personel(that can't be spelled right) they had. Elmira probably shouldn't be ranked either...but I'm sure the thought is that maybe Oswego isn't that bad..they even picked up votes this week with a 1-2-1 record. And eventhough the east teams get all the credit in the world for beating teams they should, the west didn't beat their weak teams convincingly enough to warrant votes in the poll.

Trinity and Middlebury have not started yet and are not national champs, should not be there. Elmira has no business there either. Elmira has one quality win against Norwich. They started the season beating NEC a team that went 12-13-3 .482 last year. and tied and beat Oswego a team that went 7-17-1 .300 last year (Oswego is starting this year off better). UWSP is currently 4-0. First two games were against St Olaf who were 14-11-3 .556 last year their second two games were against St Thomas who last year went 14-9-3 around .608 according to the Tommies website. But Elmira is rated???? It's still early in the season and the West will have to earn what little respect they can garner.

PrezdeJohnson09
11-09-2010, 02:52 PM
Trinity and Middlebury have not started yet and are not national champs, should not be there. Elmira has no business there either. Elmira has one quality win against Norwich. They started the season beating NEC a team that went 12-13-3 .482 last year. and tied and beat Oswego a team that went 7-17-1 .300 last year (Oswego is starting this year off better). UWSP is currently 4-0. First two games were against St Olaf who were 14-11-3 .556 last year their second two games were against St Thomas who last year went 14-9-3 around .608 according to the Tommies website. But Elmira is rated???? It's still early in the season and the West will have to earn what little respect they can garner.

Elmira didn't beat Norwich. They lost 3-1 to them.

Elmira has beaten NEC and Oswego so far.

nbound
11-09-2010, 02:59 PM
Elmira didn't beat Norwich. They lost 3-1 to them.

Elmira has beaten NEC and Oswego so far.

you are correct. I misread their schedule

dogwatcher
11-09-2010, 06:39 PM
I agree that Trinity should not be there, with the losses in personel(that can't be spelled right) they had. Elmira probably shouldn't be ranked either...but I'm sure the thought is that maybe Oswego isn't that bad..they even picked up votes this week with a 1-2-1 record. And eventhough the east teams get all the credit in the world for beating teams they should, the west didn't beat their weak teams convincingly enough to warrant votes in the poll.

This may help, I have seen Oswego play at Adrian twice and I can tell you that they are not that good. They lack speed and the skill to be a competitive team. On Friday night they dominated Adrian keeping two of their lines pinned in thier own end all night. These are the two lines that played for them exclusively for the second half of last year. It would appear that Adrian is going backwards again this year because they seem to have 2 quality defenseman and 4 forwards. They have lots of speed and skill but are loaded with players that have no clue what a pass is and love taking stupid penalites. The coaching is horrible we all know you can see it by their record on first day vs second day. If you look even further the 1st period vs the 3rd. Other coaches adjust their game and Lomanto still has no clue what do to about it so they get beat in the 3rd period and on the second day. So with all that said I guess my answer to the Elmira question is they should not be in the top ten.

nyi19
11-09-2010, 10:46 PM
This may help. I have seen Oswego play at Adrian twice and I can tell you that they are not that good. They lack speed and the skill to be a competitive team. On Friday night they dominated Adrian keeping two of their lines pinned in thier own end all night. These are the two lines that played for them exclusively for the second half of last year. It would appear that Adrian is going backwards again this year because they seem to have 2 quality defenseman and 4 forwards. They have lots of speed and skill but are loaded with players that have no clue what a pass is and love taking stupid penalites. The coaching is horrible we all know you can see it by their record on first day vs second day. If you look even further the 1st period vs the 3rd. Other coachs ajust thier game and Lomanto still has no clue what do to about it so they just get beat in the 3rd and on the second day. So with all that said I guess my answer to the Elmira question is they should not be in the top ten.

I mean, if you watched the Oswego/Elmira games online this weekend, you could see that Oswego was pretty much controlling the play. Elmira didn't get a good look at the net Sunday except when on the power play, which they obviously converted (3 PPG). But I don't know if that's a testament to Oswego not being that bad or Elmira not being that good. It's going to take seeing Oswego against a better opponent to make judgment on that.

Mania
11-10-2010, 07:03 AM
I'm open for suggestions. What better way to do it?

I feel like it would make more sense to rank them based on their records right now, not what they were when they played. It wouldn't make sense if two of the best teams in the country played their first game against each other and you put one further down because they were unfortunate enough to win before the other team had played yet.

PrezdeJohnson09
11-10-2010, 07:42 AM
I mean, if you watched the Oswego/Elmira games online this weekend, you could see that Oswego was pretty much controlling the play. Elmira didn't get a good look at the net Sunday except when on the power play, which they obviously converted (3 PPG). But I don't know if that's a testament to Oswego not being that bad or Elmira not being that good. It's going to take seeing Oswego against a better opponent to make judgment on that.

I watched parts of Saturday's game and all of Sunday's game and I find this statement a bit overbearing.

To say Oswego "pretty much controlled the play" is simply not true in my eyes of either day. I'd say if anything it was more of a fact of Elmira doesn't have anyone that can put the puck in the net five on five right now more than anything.

Give credit where credit is due..Emi Williams played phenomenal in net for the Lakers and was a big reason why Oswego got a point and limited Elmira to only four goals on the weekend.

Granted shots aren't everything....but these stats don't exactly support your argument of who carried the play. Most times when a team outshoots another by 20, the team getting outshot isn't "controlling play for the most part."

http://www.uscho.com/box/womens-hockey/2010/11/06/elmira-vs-oswego/

nbound
11-10-2010, 08:15 AM
I feel like it would make more sense to rank them based on their records right now, not what they were when they played. It wouldn't make sense if two of the best teams in the country played their first game against each other and you put one further down because they were unfortunate enough to win before the other team had played yet.

In answer to your viewpoint....I feel like it would make more sense to rank them based on their records right now, not what they were when they played. so what you are saying is, if a team becomes .500 or better for the first time all year late in the season, they should be considered an above .500 team in week 5 when they were 1-4, and anybody who played them then can say they beat .500 or better team??? Seems hardly fair to me as they were clearly not above .500 early in the season.

It wouldn't make sense if two of the best teams in the country played their first game against each other and you put one further down because they were unfortunate enough to win before the other team had played yet. in this scenario....Team A and team P are the two best teams in the country and they play each other for the first game of the year, if one team wins they are 1-0 and have a 1.000 winning percentage and the other team is 0-1 @ 0.000 winning percentage. if they play a second game in the series only one team can say they are playing a team that is .500 or better. I'm not really sure what you are trying to say in the second half of your response as no team would be put down because the other team hasn't played yet. They're playing each other.

LtPowers
11-10-2010, 09:37 AM
in this scenario....Team A and team P are the two best teams in the country and they play each other for the first game of the year, if one team wins they are 1-0 and have a 1.000 winning percentage and the other team is 0-1 @ 0.000 winning percentage. if they play a second game in the series only one team can say they are playing a team that is .500 or better. I'm not really sure what you are trying to say in the second half of your response as no team would be put down because the other team hasn't played yet. They're playing each other.

Yeah, but say they split. You're going to rank one of those teams as better than the other because only one of them beat a team with a winning record at the time of the game? Why should it matter whether Team A wins the first game or the second game, so long as they win one of the two?


Powers &8^]

nbound
11-10-2010, 01:15 PM
Yeah, but say they split. You're going to rank one of those teams as better than the other because only one of them beat a team with a winning record at the time of the game? Why should it matter whether Team A wins the first game or the second game, so long as they win one of the two?


Powers &8^]

Team A wins the first game and establishes itself as a .500 or better team(they're at 1.00) their record 1-0. Team P lost it's first game and established itself as sub .500 team.(0.000) their record 0-1. Team P wins the second game now establishing itself as a .500 team their record now 1-1 or .500 . Although team A is also 1-1 or .500 at the time of the second game Team A has not yet beaten a team that is at .500 or better. However in week 3 if team c plays Team a and Team D plays team P, both C and D get credit for playing a team that is now after two games at .500. All a teams first game of the year does is establish it as an above or below .500 team.

dogwatcher
11-10-2010, 05:53 PM
I mean, if you watched the Oswego/Elmira games online this weekend, you could see that Oswego was pretty much controlling the play. Elmira didn't get a good look at the net Sunday except when on the power play, which they obviously converted (3 PPG). But I don't know if that's a testament to Oswego not being that bad or Elmira not being that good. It's going to take seeing Oswego against a better opponent to make judgment on that.


I did watch saturdays game and I think your take on that is off a bit, no one dominated that game. The best that could be said for the teams in that game is that niether team is very good. After seeing both games in Adrian that would make for the hat trick of poor teams. If these teams do not improve they will be destined to be in the bottom 10 as opposed to the top ten.

obserbear
11-10-2010, 07:31 PM
I think we will all have a better read on the Soaring Eagles after the two games with Manhattanville this weekend. I have yet to watch this season's Valiants, but I did not see the sort of physical play up in Northfield that has characterized past Elmira squads. I have watched the spirited M-ville-Elmira rivalry (Elmira holds a 12-4-2 advantage including NCAA final victories over the Valiants in '01-'02 and '02-'03) many times over the years and there seems no love lost between the two. Should be well worth the drive up scenic Route 17!

PrezdeJohnson09
11-10-2010, 08:27 PM
i think we will all have a better read on the soaring eagles after the two games with manhattanville this weekend. I have yet to watch this season's valiants, but i did not see the sort of physical play up in northfield that has characterized past elmira squads. I have watched the spirited m-ville-elmira rivalry (elmira holds a 10-3-2 advantage including ncaa final victories over the valiants in '01-'02 and '02-'03) many times over the years and there seems no love lost between the two. Should be well worth the drive up scenic route 17!

i-86 ;)

obserbear
11-11-2010, 07:02 AM
i-86 ;)

The Route 17 part through the Catskills with a stop in Roscoe at Buffalo Zach's!

PrezdeJohnson09
11-11-2010, 07:56 AM
The Route 17 part through the Catskills with a stop in Roscoe at Buffalo Zach's!

No "World Famous" Roscoe Diner stop? or my personal favorite..The Rt. 17 diner. I think it's better than the Roscoe.

obserbear
11-11-2010, 10:51 AM
No "World Famous" Roscoe Diner stop? or my personal favorite..The Rt. 17 diner. I think it's better than the Roscoe.

The panini at Buffalo Zach's are the best in the Catskills, in addition to the proprietor Peter's spin on local goings on in Trout Town USA. BZ is where the locals hang.

LtPowers
11-11-2010, 02:39 PM
Team A wins the first game and establishes itself as a .500 or better team(they're at 1.00) their record 1-0. Team P lost it's first game and established itself as sub .500 team.(0.000) their record 0-1. Team P wins the second game now establishing itself as a .500 team their record now 1-1 or .500 . Although team A is also 1-1 or .500 at the time of the second game Team A has not yet beaten a team that is at .500 or better. However in week 3 if team c plays Team a and Team D plays team P, both C and D get credit for playing a team that is now after two games at .500. All a teams first game of the year does is establish it as an above or below .500 team.

Yes, I understand how it works, thank you. But you still haven't explained why doing it that way makes sense. You would rate Team A higher than Team P (?) after two games even though they each have a 1-1 record and have only played each other. That doesn't make any logical sense.


Powers &8^]

Mania
11-11-2010, 04:59 PM
Fan Opinion Poll for November 11, 2010

Rank | Team | (1st Votes) Pts | Previous Rank
1. RIT 69 2
2. Amherst (5) 58 1
3. Norwich (1) 57 4
4. Plattsburgh (1) 53 3
5. Gustavus (1) 46 5
6. River Falls 40 6
7. Manhattanville 31 8
8. Middlebury 21 8
9. Lake Forrest 19 10
10. Stevens Point 18 NR

Elmira 14, Utica 5, Concordia Mn 3, Trinity 3, St. Norbert 2, Neumann 1



East Top 5

Rank | Team
1. RIT
2. Amherst
3. Norwich
4. Plattsburgh
5. Manhattanville


West Top 5

Rank | Team
1. Gustavus
2. River Falls
3. Lake Forrest
4. Stevens Point
5. Concordia Mn

Note as many votes this week...


Next poll will be accepted from 11/15 - 11/18

nbound
11-11-2010, 10:00 PM
Yes, I understand how it works, thank you. But you still haven't explained why doing it that way makes sense. You would rate Team A higher than Team P (?) after two games even though they each have a 1-1 record and have only played each other. That doesn't make any logical sense.


Powers &8^]

You don't understand the Berry Patch System. Team P would be the higher ranked team after two games. Why, Because they are 1-1 and have defeated team A who was 1-0 and 1.000 %. I never said team A was the better team. Team A had yet defeated a team at or above .500. Team P would have winning percentage of 1.000 against teams .500 or better , and an overall winning percentage of .500 (1-1) a combined average percentage of .750 Team A is 1-1 with no wins against teams at .500 or better the day the games were played so their combined average against teams at .500 or better is 0.000 Their overall winning percentage is .500(1-1) Their combined average winning percentage would be .250 Thus ranked below Team P The biggest fault I can see is that not all teams play the same amount or the same caliber teams at .500 or better. NOt all .500 or better teams are created equal, scheduling sometimes has a lot to do with it. Considering results or winning percentages of games against .500 or better teams and overall winning percentage and averaging them out is all I have to go on. Hard to judge a model using only a 2 game example. As the season plays out everything should straighten out. I like seeing how teams do when playing against .500 or better teams. Hope that helps at least a little.
Devising the Berry Patch System last year allowed me to pay more attention to all teams and not just NCHA or MIAC teams.

gojackets
11-12-2010, 12:53 AM
lets move on :)