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Hokydad
06-18-2010, 11:20 AM
While I generally agree with the sentiments on the ntdp, USA hockey definitely made a move in the right direction with adding a December camp for this tournament. Last year, four kids who did not make the summer camp made the team (Walker, Lashoff, Zucker, Ramage) and a number of other guys made the December camp (Faulk, Merrill, Nicastro, Brown, Wohlberg) but didn't make it to Saskatoon. If guys like Krug, Grimaldi or Yogan have strong beginnings to their seasons, they could get the call in December.

Agreed. The point though is they should not have to wait for the political kids to go and fail. The only way to lose a natl dev program race is if the jockey falls off the horse. But than again if you do get in trouble 3 or 4 times, and than do something again and get suspended, they will pick you up and put you back on the horse

Puck Swami
06-18-2010, 12:58 PM
For many years, USA Hockey had a model where the money went to 'grass roots' - and the WJC results were a pair of bronze medals at best. We weren't even in the elite program conversation globally, becuase the elite players weren't getting better by playing lesser players.

Since that the UNDTP has been installed, the results have been far better, including a couple of WJC gold medals and a program that is now a threat to win every time out.

The value in his program is our top players get better by playing against top players. We don't have the depth of Canada, and likely never will, so spreading the money out probably won't work.

People always say "USA is political". Sure it is. So is Hockey Canada. So is every other elite sports entity in the world. The best players overcome politics.

Rogie21
06-18-2010, 01:38 PM
Well said.

cg_siouxfan
06-18-2010, 02:03 PM
The best players overcome politics.

Lots of players don't get a chance to show that they're the best, especially if they're born on New Year's Eve.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outliers_(book)#Synopsis


The book begins with Gladwell's research on why a disproportionate number of elite Canadian hockey players are born in the first few months of the calendar year. The answer, he points out, is that since youth hockey leagues determine eligibility by calendar year, children born on January 1 play in the same league as those born on December 31 in the same year. Because adolescents born earlier in the year are bigger and maturer than their younger competitors, they are often identified as better athletes, leading to extra coaching and a higher likelihood of being selected for elite hockey leagues. This phenomenon in which "the rich get richer and the poor get poorer" is dubbed "accumulative advantage" by Gladwell

Hokydad
06-18-2010, 08:30 PM
For many years, USA Hockey had a model where the money went to 'grass roots' - and the WJC results were a pair of bronze medals at best. We weren't even in the elite program conversation globally, becuase the elite players weren't getting better by playing lesser players.

Since that the UNDTP has been installed, the results have been far better, including a couple of WJC gold medals and a program that is now a threat to win every time out.

The value in his program is our top players get better by playing against top players. We don't have the depth of Canada, and likely never will, so spreading the money out probably won't work.

People always say "USA is political". Sure it is. So is Hockey Canada. So is every other elite sports entity in the world. The best players overcome politics.

They play in the USHL. They do maybe 10-15 tops intl games, if those handfull of games is the differnce, USa HOCKEY IS IN DEEP sh**

Those players from the 2004 team would be the same player today without a bunch of 8 year olds spending 4 million for their training.

If the program is so good, they shouldnt have to rig the selection process and bs the public with their invites.

Puck Swami
06-18-2010, 10:44 PM
They play in the USHL. They do maybe 10-15 tops intl games, if those handfull of games is the differnce, USa HOCKEY IS IN DEEP sh**


It's not the USHL games that make them better as much as playing each other in practice every day where they are being pushed by other good players (not inferior ones), the international experience they get and the dedicated weight training. They also create a sense familiarity with each other that pays off for years down the road. These aspects are all significant upgrades from the pre-NTDP days.

And I don't think USA Hockey is in deep sh-- at all. The US U17, U18, U20 and Olympic teams were all really excellent this year - Gold and Silver medals virtually across the board - things are working and working well. I think USA Hockey also has done a terrific job developing players. There are 215 American in the NHL now. 15 years ago, there were about 100.

You are correct that some of those players would have made the NHL without the USTDP. And you are also right that the program has had its share of bad apples over the years, and that politics are part of the process. But I also think that anytime you gather 20-40 top young players, you are going to have more than your share of drama with players, parents and hometown coaches, who mostly feel that their kid should be getting more of their share .....(ice time, pp time, attention).

Hokydad
06-19-2010, 07:23 AM
If they are inferior, why are they in last place? Hayes and Coyle for example will both be drafted before any dev team forward.

Kane et all are the exact same player today either way.

"sense of familiairty? That worked great with Thorton, Heatley et all in olympics. You are really reaching. Look how many from that class of 04 were on olympics and wait till the next one.

Nat program has zero to do with players in NHL, its the expansion/Gretzky years

You are reaching even farther

They can lift weights anywhere. Just ask why Kreider, Coyle etc all kill the combines.

Good players are good players, this program is a farce and a way to keep the pay coming in for the staff.

8 year olds pay for it with zero input, 99% of whom dont even know it

FYI, my opinion and yours have valid points, both of which I respect.

I stood and listened to Herb Brooks do a 40 minute speach on it and he despised it and blew out of the water times 50 every point you made.

I will stick with him.

Onion Man
06-19-2010, 08:51 AM
I stood and listened to Herb Brooks do a 40 minute speach on it and he despised it and blew out of the water times 50 every point you made.

I will stick with him.

No one cares about your lame name dropping, Stalker. Go back to your van.

Rogie21
06-19-2010, 10:10 AM
Hayes and Coyle for example will both be drafted before any dev team forward.
The two best forwards on the U18s, Saad and Nieto, are 2011 draft eligible, not 2010. Saad projected to be top 10 and Nieto top 20.


They play in the USHL. They do maybe 10-15 tops intl games .
Conveniently ignoring 10 games vs D1 college teams and 5 more vs. good D3 teams.

Obviously you feel strongly about this topic, but omissions such as these undermine your argument and credibility.

Puck Swami
06-19-2010, 12:18 PM
I heard Herbie's player development strategy as well. He preferred satellite programs at regional levels, and it was interesting. That said, I doubt Herbie's motives were all pure player development related...Herbie's rivalry with Bob Johnson was legendary, and when Johnson became executive director of USA Hockey in the late 80s, Herbie reveled in taking shots at Johnson at every opportunity. And the USNTDP idea was one of Johnson's program ideas. Badger may have not won an Olympic Gold, but he did win NCAA titles and Stanley Cups, and in my view, was just as important a force for American hockey as Brooks.

Hokydad
06-19-2010, 02:55 PM
I heard Herbie's player development strategy as well. He preferred satellite programs at regional levels, and it was interesting. That said, I doubt Herbie's motives were all pure player development related...Herbie's rivalry with Bob Johnson was legendary, and when Johnson became executive director of USA Hockey in the late 80s, Herbie reveled in taking shots at Johnson at every opportunity. And the USNTDP idea was one of Johnson's program ideas. Badger may have not won an Olympic Gold, but he did win NCAA titles and Stanley Cups, and in my view, was just as important a force for American hockey as Brooks.

Very good points. Johnson took just as many shots at him.

2 great hockey guys who dedicated their lives to the sport....

Hokydad
06-19-2010, 02:58 PM
The two best forwards on the U18s, Saad and Nieto, are 2011 draft eligible, not 2010. Saad projected to be top 10 and Nieto top 20.


Conveniently ignoring 10 games vs D1 college teams and 5 more vs. good D3 teams.(Quote)

I didnt ignore those. Soft games more for exposure, very little hitting and outside a good trip and visit, more dev for them in USHL games than those games.

Obviously you feel strongly about this topic, but omissions such as these undermine your argument and credibility.

I have watched 20+/- of them and dont feel they have anything to do with long term development. Do you really belive Pat Kane got 1% better by playing an exhibition vs Denver? Not 1/10th of 1 % better for it.

Wicked Slappaahs
06-19-2010, 08:06 PM
I heard Herbie's player development strategy as well. He preferred satellite programs at regional levels, and it was interesting. That said, I doubt Herbie's motives were all pure player development related...Herbie's rivalry with Bob Johnson was legendary, and when Johnson became executive director of USA Hockey in the late 80s, Herbie reveled in taking shots at Johnson at every opportunity. And the USNTDP idea was one of Johnson's program ideas. Badger may have not won an Olympic Gold, but he did win NCAA titles and Stanley Cups, and in my view, was just as important a force for American hockey as Brooks.

Yet another well-reasoned post...this folks is why he is the Swami ! :p

Youngblood11
06-20-2010, 06:46 PM
Justin Faulk will make it, he was one of the last players cut from the 09-10 team and he was only 17 at the time. Kid is solid.

4four4
06-20-2010, 09:49 PM
I heard Herbie's player development strategy as well. He preferred satellite programs at regional levels, and it was interesting. That said, I doubt Herbie's motives were all pure player development related...Herbie's rivalry with Bob Johnson was legendary, and when Johnson became executive director of USA Hockey in the late 80s, Herbie reveled in taking shots at Johnson at every opportunity. And the USNTDP idea was one of Johnson's program ideas. Badger may have not won an Olympic Gold, but he did win NCAA titles and Stanley Cups, and in my view, was just as important a force for American hockey as Brooks.

If Johnson coached at Minnesota things would be different.

Wicked Slappaahs
06-22-2010, 02:40 PM
"Word on the street" comes across as code for "unnamed sources who agree with me..."
Actually, in HD's case his sources are the as-of-yet unnamed voices in his head...:eek: :p