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Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

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  • Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

    With the fact that basically a DII's schedule is worthless and with the even more stringent recruitment policies put in place by those in charge of NCAA Div. II. Is this the beginning of the end for the D2's? From the rumors I have heard the Schools in the West don't want them because if they were allowed to compete in D3 it would give the East more schools and screw up the ratio. 4 Northeast 10 schools were pushed out of the ECAC NE and now the same thing may happen to St. Mikes and St. A's. Is there hope at the end of the tunnel for these 6 schools or can somebody speak up on what is happening with these programs.

  • #2
    Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

    Originally posted by cooperalls View Post
    From the rumors I have heard the Schools in the West don't want them because if they were allowed to compete in D3 it would give the East more schools and screw up the ratio.
    Even though the addition of 6 schools to DIII would give us a 12 team tournament, and the history is that the extra slot is unlikely to go to any of the 6 new teams? (except maybe St. A)
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    • #3
      Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

      Originally posted by NUProf View Post
      Even though the addition of 6 schools to DIII would give us a 12 team tournament, and the history is that the extra slot is unlikely to go to any of the 6 new teams? (except maybe St. A)
      I can see this being true. You need to consider what a 12 team tournament would look like with the geographical restrictions we have to deal with. In an ideal world you would get...

      #8 vs. #9 advanced vs. #1
      #5 vs. #12 advanced vs. #4
      #6 vs. #11 advanced vs. #3
      #7 vs #10 advanced vs. #2

      Except you can also have options where there are multiple play-in games feeding into the same quarterfinal, and multiple byes in a single quarterfinal. For example...

      #1 vs. #5
      #8 vs. #9 advanced to #4 vs. #12
      #3 vs. #6
      #7 vs. #10 advanced to #2 vs. #11

      With cross-regional matchups not happening in the play-in round, the west would have to get 5 teams into the tournament to ensure two final four spots (two byes into Quarterfinal A, one bye and one play-in into Quarterfinal B). With only four teams, all four teams can find themselves in play-in games (see: 2010) playing down to a single regional.

      Is it likely the west could get five teams in a 12 team tournament? Let's break it down:

      Eastern AQs (5): ECAC-NE/E, SUNYAC, NESCAC, MASCAC.
      Western AQs (3): MIAC, MCHA, NCHA
      Eastern Guarantee (1): Pool B*
      At-large: 3

      *I'm giving a Pool B back in as I'm nearly 99% confident the 5 ECAC-W schools and the NE10 schools would get over the access ratio required to maintain a Pool B. Since no western teams could receive the Pool B, this would serve as another de-factor eastern bid - which would be the biggest initial problem for the west.

      So with 9 spots in the tournament spoken for, we now have 3 spots remaining for at-large teams. Recent history has shown a pretty strong inclination towards 2 eastern teams and 1 western team when at-large spots have been available. This is especially true when given the insular schedule of the NCHA. That makes an 8-4 split more than likely most years. So the debate regarding whether all four teams would get a play-in or a bye would continue.

      Since now awarding the west two FF spots would require all eight eastern teams to be in a play-in game, the odds of the west getting this arrangement decrease significantly.

      So, in summary: A 12 team tournament likely ensures an additional bid for the east via the continuation of Pool B past the MASCAC's AQ certification, and makes the chances of two western teams getting to the final four decrease significantly. Undoubtedly, the west would be very hesitant about allowing six eastern schools to jump into the mix, since the benefit would clearly come to the other eastern schools.
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      • #4
        Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

        Josh

        Good plan and idea. But, can you split D-II into the schools that play up and the schools that play down??

        One more thought -- will the NE10 become the new MCHA?? Great record and no chance to get selected.
        Last edited by joecct; 06-12-2010, 12:30 PM.
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        • #5
          Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

          Originally posted by joecct View Post
          Josh

          Good plan and idea. But, can you split D-II into the schools that play up and the schools that play down??
          Right now they are split into schools that play up and schools that have nothing to play for. Rebrand it as a D2/D3 Collegiate Championship and nobody is playing down.
          2007-2008 ECAC East/NESCAC Interlock Pick 'em winner
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          • #6
            Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

            That's definitely the way to go.

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            • #7
              Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

              Originally posted by joecct View Post
              One more thought -- will the NE10 become the new MCHA?? Great record and no chance to get selected.
              Not likely. The NE-10 is a multi-sport conference.

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              • #8
                Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

                Why not just do what D1 does for a regional tournament one weekend send the the final four on. Why does DIII have to be so complicated doesn't it have more teams than D1 and you have to figure out an quadratic equation to figure out who gets in yet they are changing the rules of the game maybe the rules committee should change the rules of the tournament bracket!

                Why are we even taling about tournament style when the question is will they even be allowed to be counted as a DIII? Will the NCAA classify the tournament as DII-DIII? Or are they just done!

                Originally posted by Josh Carey View Post
                I can see this being true. You need to consider what a 12 team tournament would look like with the geographical restrictions we have to deal with. In an ideal world you would get...

                #8 vs. #9 advanced vs. #1
                #5 vs. #12 advanced vs. #4
                #6 vs. #11 advanced vs. #3
                #7 vs #10 advanced vs. #2

                Except you can also have options where there are multiple play-in games feeding into the same quarterfinal, and multiple byes in a single quarterfinal. For example...

                #1 vs. #5
                #8 vs. #9 advanced to #4 vs. #12
                #3 vs. #6
                #7 vs. #10 advanced to #2 vs. #11

                With cross-regional matchups not happening in the play-in round, the west would have to get 5 teams into the tournament to ensure two final four spots (two byes into Quarterfinal A, one bye and one play-in into Quarterfinal B). With only four teams, all four teams can find themselves in play-in games (see: 2010) playing down to a single regional.

                Is it likely the west could get five teams in a 12 team tournament? Let's break it down:

                Eastern AQs (5): ECAC-NE/E, SUNYAC, NESCAC, MASCAC.
                Western AQs (3): MIAC, MCHA, NCHA
                Eastern Guarantee (1): Pool B*
                At-large: 3

                *I'm giving a Pool B back in as I'm nearly 99% confident the 5 ECAC-W schools and the NE10 schools would get over the access ratio required to maintain a Pool B. Since no western teams could receive the Pool B, this would serve as another de-factor eastern bid - which would be the biggest initial problem for the west.

                So with 9 spots in the tournament spoken for, we now have 3 spots remaining for at-large teams. Recent history has shown a pretty strong inclination towards 2 eastern teams and 1 western team when at-large spots have been available. This is especially true when given the insular schedule of the NCHA. That makes an 8-4 split more than likely most years. So the debate regarding whether all four teams would get a play-in or a bye would continue.

                Since now awarding the west two FF spots would require all eight eastern teams to be in a play-in game, the odds of the west getting this arrangement decrease significantly.

                So, in summary: A 12 team tournament likely ensures an additional bid for the east via the continuation of Pool B past the MASCAC's AQ certification, and makes the chances of two western teams getting to the final four decrease significantly. Undoubtedly, the west would be very hesitant about allowing six eastern schools to jump into the mix, since the benefit would clearly come to the other eastern schools.
                Last edited by cooperalls; 06-12-2010, 10:33 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

                  Originally posted by joecct View Post
                  Josh

                  Good plan and idea. But, can you split D-II into the schools that play up and the schools that play down??
                  Not really necessary, I don't think. The takeaway is the "access ratio" would be 66 teams securing 8 AQs, or 8.25. So for every 8.25 teams, there would be one Pool B bid. Whether or not the NCAA is willing to give the 0.25 as a friendly rounding would determine if it would take 3 or 4 DII teams + the ECAC-West to secure a Pool B bid.

                  One more thought -- will the NE10 become the new MCHA?? Great record and no chance to get selected.
                  No. Because until Adrian came along, that "great record" part wasn't a part of the MCHA discussion. It's a fairly recent development that the MCHA has even been in the discussion at all. Because the NE10 would be a smaller conference, one of two things would happen making that unlikely. Either they would play a highly insular schedule (think 4 games each against 5 other teams) or would play against the stiff competition. Maybe if they could get most NC games against NE schools or MASCAC schools, there would be a chance, but frankly, you might see the same lack of desire to schedule them in NC games as the MCHA experiences out west.

                  Originally posted by cooperalls View Post
                  Why not just do what D1 does for a regional tournament one weekend send the the final four on.
                  Money.

                  Why does DIII have to be so complicated doesn't it have more teams than D1 and you have to figure out an quadratic equation to figure out who gets in yet they are changing the rules of the game maybe the rules committee should change the rules of the tournament bracket!
                  Money. Wisconsin and Boston College have slightly larger athletic department revenues than SUNY Morrisville an UW Eau Claire.

                  Honestly, the quadratic equation is much more straightforward than the D3 selection process. Nobody outside of the NCAA is opposed to changing the rules of the tournament bracket. So either schools need to start lobbying the NCAA or leave if they want it changed.

                  Why are we even taling about tournament style when the question is will they even be allowed to be counted as a DIII? Will the NCAA classify the tournament as DII-DIII? Or are they just done!
                  It's June. Not exactly a lot of hockey going on. Have to pass the time somehow.
                  2010 D-III NCAA Tournament Pick'em Champion (Perfect Bracket)
                  2008-09 USCHO MIAC Correspondent
                  2007-09 WGSU Geneseo Play-by-play announcer
                  Bracketologist For That Other Site

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

                    Originally posted by NUProf View Post
                    Right now they are split into schools that play up and schools that have nothing to play for. Rebrand it as a D2/D3 Collegiate Championship and nobody is playing down.
                    But don't forget that there are about 14 D-II schools playing D-I hockey.

                    My concern is how the NCAA can legislate that 14 D-II schools play in the D-I championship and 6 D-II schools play in the D2/3 championship. I've never seen a division split before, but I guess there is a first time.
                    CCT '77 & '78
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                    1 granddaughter (EML 4/18)

                    ”Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
                    - Benjamin Franklin

                    Banned from the St. Lawrence University Facebook page - March 2016 (But I got better).

                    I want to live forever. So far, so good.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

                      Originally posted by joecct View Post
                      But don't forget that there are about 14 D-II schools playing D-I hockey.

                      My concern is how the NCAA can legislate that 14 D-II schools play in the D-I championship and 6 D-II schools play in the D2/3 championship. I've never seen a division split before, but I guess there is a first time.
                      Don't forget that there are several DIII schools (Clarkson, SLU, RIT, etc.) playing in the DI championship, and the rest play at the DIII level, so if DIII can split, why not DII?
                      2007-2008 ECAC East/NESCAC Interlock Pick 'em winner
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                      2013-2014 Last Person Standing Winner (tie)
                      2016-2017 Last Person Standing Winner

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                      • #12
                        Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

                        Originally posted by NUProf View Post
                        Don't forget that there are several DIII schools (Clarkson, SLU, RIT, etc.) playing in the DI championship, and the rest play at the DIII level, so if DIII can split, why not DII?
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                        • #13
                          Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

                          thank you NU Prof.
                          of the 10 schools playing NCAA hockey,in NE10 4 are currently playing DI hockey and 6 are playing a DII/III schedule.Of the 4 playing DI, the chance of any of the schools dropping down ,due to the current NCAA situation is 0%.
                          If there was the option of playing a DIII schedule, then there might be a 50% chance of AIC dropping down,30% Merrimack(strictly for financial reasons),10% Bentley and 0% Lowell.If something is not worked out Assumption.Franklin Pierce and Stonehill would probably drop the sport,SNHU would have to take a hard look at Varsity status ,leaving St.A's and St.Mike's to try to figure it out on there own.
                          If the NCAA can sign off on playing up, what is the big deal on allowing teams to play down(if they continue to play by DIII rules).

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                          • #14
                            Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

                            Big issue in the past was DII student athletes playing in more than one sport, where they could get athletic scholarship for one sport and play in another, thus b'ball players can't play other sports, I am led to believe.
                            Formerly known as NUSuntan

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                            • #15
                              Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

                              put language prohibiting any student that receives any athletic scholarship money,in any sport,from playing hockey.let the AD sign an affadavit affirming this and then move on.for the record, few, if any scholarship student has played any other varsity sport at St.A's,although non scholarship students have played basketball.

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