Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

[CARDS_rule_the_Burgh]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

I realize other D2 teams offer athletic scholarships, but St. A's & St. Mike's do not offer scholarships for ice hockey. The only sport they give scholarships for is basketball. So I guess I am missing how they have any advantage over any of the D3 teams? Would this fact possibly help their case and allow them to remain in the ECAC East (and have the games played against them count)?

If I'm understanding the argument correctly, they are discussing other advantages DII schools tend to have. In essence, the difference between schools that choose DII membership over DIII membership tends to be fundamental philosophy. DII schools tend to be more willing to commit portion of their budget to athletics (although less that DI schools), because they view athletics as even more of an integral part of the educational process than do the DIII schools.

As such, the quality of training equipment common to all sports teams will tend to be greater, quality of training and support staff will tend to be greater, and quality of advisement and counseling for student athletes will tend to be greater. These would all, in the end, prove to be an advantage should DII teams compete in DIII as championship-eligible teams. (being non-eligible for a championship is a huge hindrance in recruiting - enough to nullify most advantages accrued from other areas, such as training, counseling, etc.)

Of course, I should note that these arguments are based on major generalizations of both DII and DIII schools, which may or may not apply to the 6 DII schools in question, or even the 71(?) DIII schools in question. I'm not a part of the athletic departments or administration for any of these institutions, so I couldn't tell you how this would pertain to these specific schools. But, based on such generalizations, chances are good that DII schools, if relieved of that recruiting difficulty, could gain a competitive advantage in this sense.

[norm1909]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

If I'm understanding the argument correctly, they are discussing other advantages DII schools tend to have. In essence, the difference between schools that choose DII membership over DIII membership tends to be fundamental philosophy. DII schools tend to be more willing to commit portion of their budget to athletics (although less that DI schools), because they view athletics as even more of an integral part of the educational process than do the DIII schools.

As such, the quality of training equipment common to all sports teams will tend to be greater, quality of training and support staff will tend to be greater, and quality of advisement and counseling for student athletes will tend to be greater. These would all, in the end, prove to be an advantage should DII teams compete in DIII as championship-eligible teams. (being non-eligible for a championship is a huge hindrance in recruiting - enough to nullify most advantages accrued from other areas, such as training, counseling, etc.)

Of course, I should note that these arguments are based on major generalizations of both DII and DIII schools, which may or may not apply to the 6 DII schools in question, or even the 71(?) DIII schools in question. I'm not a part of the athletic departments or administration for any of these institutions, so I couldn't tell you how this would pertain to these specific schools. But, based on such generalizations, chances are good that DII schools, if relieved of that recruiting difficulty, could gain a competitive advantage in this sense.

IMO, Cards you are on the same page as I am. I certainly acknowledge that the stronger administrative stance shown by a school adopting a DII strategy over a DIII strategy does give them a potential recruiting advantage. That said, if the school chooses to adhere to DIII polices in a particular program for the purpose of competing exclusively among DIII competition, this would significant reduce – though NOT eliminate that advantage. My feeling is that we are talking about student athletes who did not make the DI cut, many of these athletes nevertheless still foster strong hopes of extending their lifelong commitment to the sport by playing at some level beyond college, these student athletes will look at the big picture, with the schools historical legacy, current coaches and staff as well as SOS and other factors more important than the general strength of the athletic department. Hopefully, all of these student athletes will also recognize that a career leading to a successful retirement is a long shot even at DI and far less likely anywhere else, hence, their primary objective should be to choose the school most compatible with their occupational career goals. As I’ve noted, IMO, any residual advantages the schools may maintain by virtue of otherwise being DII institutions is likely to be less significant that the differences between DIII private versus public institutions.

[NUProf]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

Hopefully, all of these student athletes will also recognize that a career leading to a successful retirement is a long shot even at DI and far less likely anywhere else, hence, their primary objective should be to choose the school most compatible with their occupational career goals. As I’ve noted, IMO, any residual advantages the schools may maintain by virtue of otherwise being DII institutions is likely to be less significant that the differences between DIII private versus public institutions.

Just to put it in perspective...Given a choice between Anselm's and Norwich, would Norwich's history of DIII success outweigh St. Anselm's status as a DII program?

Then look at a choice between St. Anselm's and Framingham State under the same circumstances. What would Framingham State be able to offer a recruit to outweigh St. Anselm's DII status?

[altazo]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

Just to put it in perspective...Given a choice between Anselm's and Norwich, would Norwich's history of DIII success outweigh St. Anselm's status as a DII program?

Just what I was thinking. I see the point about DII school's athletic departments being generally more likely to fund and support it's teams with facilities, etc. However, at this time I just don't see a kid who is a fringe level DI player choosing to attend St. Anselm or St. Mikes over say, Norwich, SNC, Plattsburgh, etc. etc. just to be able to tell his buddies from midget and junior hockey that he's playing at a DII school...

[joecct]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

Guys

Aren't there disparities among the current D-III schools??? The ECAC-E & NE were created to separate the schools based on the resources devoted to the hockey programs. That's still the case right now.

There are D-III schools out there that treat there hockey programs with lots of resources (Middlebury, Norwich, CSS, SNC for example) with traveling radio, TV, first rate facilities, an engaged and active SID department. At the other end are schools where you may or may not have the SID engaged, no radio or TV, and the facilities are mediocre at best. That's just within D-III.

So what big advantage will the NE10 have over the ECAC-E, SUNYAC, NCHA, NESCAC or ECAC-W??

[norm1909]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

Just to put it in perspective...Given a choice between Anselm's and Norwich, would Norwich's history of DIII success outweigh St. Anselm's status as a DII program?

Then look at a choice between St. Anselm's and Framingham State under the same circumstances. What would Framingham State be able to offer a recruit to outweigh St. Anselm's DII status?

Exactly, IMO, Norwich outweighs St. Anselm's regardless of whether St. Anselm has a theoretical chance at participation in a DIII Championship or not.

Academics aside, Framingham State, they have a better chance pulling in a recruit against St. Anselm than they do Norwich in either scenario, while St. Anselm will continue to have a recruiting edge over Framingham State in either scenario.

While I respect and agree with the argument that the DII schools have stronger administrative support (or are currently stuck in DII - ala St Michael's), I do not see the serious student athlete being overtaken by the lure of a DII athletic department over the lure of a strong, successful DIII hockey program.

[norm1909]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

Just what I was thinking. I see the point about DII school's athletic departments being generally more likely to fund and support it's teams with facilities, etc. However, at this time I just don't see a kid who is a fringe level DI player choosing to attend St. Anselm or St. Mikes over say, Norwich, SNC, Plattsburgh, etc. etc. just to be able to tell his buddies from midget and junior hockey that he's playing at a DII school...

I agree, and better yet, its actually: ... just to be able to tell his buddies from midget and junior hockey that he's playing at a DII school that agreed to be bound by DIII polices and plays a DIII schedule.

[norm1909]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

Guys

Aren't there disparities among the current D-III schools??? The ECAC-E & NE were created to separate the schools based on the resources devoted to the hockey programs. That's still the case right now.

There are D-III schools out there that treat there hockey programs with lots of resources (Middlebury, Norwich, CSS, SNC for example) with traveling radio, TV, first rate facilities, an engaged and active SID department. At the other end are schools where you may or may not have the SID engaged, no radio or TV, and the facilities are mediocre at best. That's just within D-III.

So what big advantage will the NE10 have over the ECAC-E, SUNYAC, NCHA, NESCAC or ECAC-W??

I agree fully here too, and don't think the championship lacking status CURRENTLY significantly swayed a student athlete away from an NE10 to a DIII school with a "mediocre program". What it HAS done, is deny the DII student athletes from a complete collegiate playing experience - i.e. never having even a chance at championship. IMO, while there are certainly exceptions, most non-DI players choose the school that best fits their academic goals within their financial and other personal needs (such as being reasonably close to family, etc) first, and then the school with the strongest program and not the school with the higher athletic department resources.

[The Real Georgia Peach]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

It looks to me that most of these posts are separating the Student from the Athlete, with the emphasis on the Athlete. In recruiting for a hockey player, these may be valid points, however, most students, (in my opinion), when opting for a school, will choice the school that best fits his/her academic desires/future. The vast majority of student athletes, even at the DI level, have very few expectations of participation beyond college.

[NUProf]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

It looks to me that most of these posts are separating the Student from the Athlete, with the emphasis on the Athlete. In recruiting for a hockey player, these may be valid points, however, most students, (in my opinion), when opting for a school, will choice the school that best fits his/her academic desires/future. The vast majority of student athletes, even at the DI level, have very few expectations of participation beyond college.

The discussion was about what are the advantages that a DII school has in recruiting - but I agree with you 100% on that point.

[CARDS_rule_the_Burgh]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

It looks to me that most of these posts are separating the Student from the Athlete, with the emphasis on the Athlete. In recruiting for a hockey player, these may be valid points, however, most students, (in my opinion), when opting for a school, will choice the school that best fits his/her academic desires/future. The vast majority of student athletes, even at the DI level, have very few expectations of participation beyond college.

While I agree 100%, I think that, when it comes to recruiting, the Student-Athlete himself is often the most guilty of "separating the Student from the Athlete" - more frequently "with emphasis on the Athlete". So, when discussing how one school gets a recruiting advantage over another, one must look at the situation from that viewpoint, which is shared by the majority of potential Student-Athletes.

Although it would be great if everybody realized the concept of "student before athlete", it unfortunately does not happen most of the time - even in DIII.

[hawkhockey]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

Does anyone have any idea on how many DI schools are non-scholarship?
I am sure about Union, RIT,Army and air force, but the rest of the Atlantic League any other others are confusing me

[3rdLiner]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

I thought that the Ivy League schools did not offer any scholarships and just met full financial need once you were admitted?

[jerrynu26]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

Does anyone have any idea on how many DI schools are non-scholarship?
I am sure about Union, RIT,Army and air force, but the rest of the Atlantic League any other others are confusing me

I don't think you can consider Army and Air Force "non-scholarship" schools.

[Hammer]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

I agree. IIRC, everyone at those two institutions is on a full-ride.