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Trillium
03-13-2010, 07:24 AM
There are only so many scholarships and even spots for goalies in D-I. More than at any other position, talented goalies fall through the cracks. Sometimes because teams miss them, at other times because many teams don't have a scholarship available for a goalie in a given class.



Also agreed. There is simply not room for everyone in D1, and not everyone would be satisfied with a partial. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking cream of the crop only, despite the fact that lesser talents still see interest.

This still doesn't explain why proven top goalies are often passed over for those same limited slots by lesser ones they competed with, but who again fail to impress at the next level.

There are still a great many D-1 teams with less than stellar goaltending. To build a contending team, you need to start from the net out. The goalie that started this discussion is *only* the ECAC goalie of the year, for cryin' out loud! And only a rookie. And just about got missed.

In another recent well-known example, a local Midget goalie was actually selected over a couple of top PWHL goalies who would have jumped at the chance to go there as their first choice two years in a row ....and not surprisingly that team has since plummeted in the standings. We're talking night and day differences in talent.

Blackbeard
03-13-2010, 11:41 AM
Also agreed. There is simply not room for everyone in D1, and not everyone would be satisfied with a partial. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking cream of the crop only, despite the fact that lesser talents still see interest.

This still doesn't explain why proven top goalies are often passed over for those same limited slots by lesser ones they competed with, but who again fail to impress at the next level.

There are still a great many D-1 teams with less than stellar goaltending. To build a contending team, you need to start from the net out. The goalie that started this discussion is *only* the ECAC goalie of the year, for cryin' out loud! And only a rookie. And just about got missed.

In another recent well-known example, a local Midget goalie was actually selected over a couple of top PWHL goalies who would have jumped at the chance to go there as their first choice two years in a row ....and not surprisingly that team has since plummeted in the standings. We're talking night and day differences in talent.

I think a major part of the answer to your question can be summed up by saying this...to their credit (and maybe in the interest of self preservation) every coach that I have every known, many of whom were extremely knowledgeable and had devoted large portions of their lives to the game with respect to both playing and coaching, during the initial sit down meeting with all the team parents the purpose of which was to discuss and make clear their plans and goals for the season that was about to begin, made the following strong disclosure..."and I also want to make it perfectly clear that I know absolutely nothing about goaltending."

I don't think that there is any reason to believe that that changes much the higher up the coaching ladder one climbs, unless of course the coach in question was once a goaltender.

Goaltending is a skill and a mind set that is on another planet compared to the rest of the team which is why there are goaltending coaches.

Another point is that some players at the midget level start getting goaltending coaching and some do not. While one can generalize by saying that the more talented ones end up getting such advanced coaching it is just a generalization...some athletically talented players end up not getting such coaching whether it be due to financial constraints or whatever else. These players do not have a goaltending coach that a team coach can speak to about them. Those that do have a goaltending coach that a team coach can potentially talk to to get an informed opinion of that particular player now have someone who can compensate for the team coach's lack of knowledge and the existence of this relationship now acts as a bridge between the player and the team coach over the empty chasm below that represents the team coach's lack of knowledge.

Secondly, as an unintended consequence of a goaltender having a higher profiled advanced goaltending coach, this relationship can perform a promotional function of sorts when team coach's do come calling. So, equally talented players at one level who do not get advanced coaching very quickly get left behind in the technical skills department and, as a result, in the name recognition department and almost immediately fall off everyone's radar screen.

OnMAA
03-13-2010, 03:21 PM
Then there are the goalies who's teams are so strong that they surrender single digit shots on goal, plus they manage to sweep the rebounds away before you can judge their goalie's recovery technique.

It's a challenge! Simple as that! Congrats to Qunnipiac for finding a diamond in the rough!

The "Diamond in the Rough" was a well known commodity for many years in Ontario, even back in the day when she played at Etobicoke before moving
on to Missy.

I'm with Trillium. Both last year and this year several top notch goalies from Ontario seemed to be passed over for lesser ones.

Just look around the ECAC and you will find that many first stringers and key backups are from Ontario. Mazotta, Seguin, Jamieson, Vigilante, van den Bliek, Plenderleith, Kessler, Ladiges.

notfromaroundhere
03-14-2010, 03:54 PM
Looking at goalie selection as a critical skill for successful teams, it seems that the coach who can consistently identify goalies who are productive will have a long career.

I agree that there are many coaches who get put in charge of selecting goalies who do a poor job. Much of that is based upon insufficient observation. As someone mentioned, observing a goalie whose defense does a good job of clearing rebounds or keeping the shot count and quality down makes it difficult to evaluate how they will perform under less than ideal circumstances.

On the other hand, goalies who spend their career fighting fire after fire often don't develop the mental conditioning necessary to play on a team where shots are few and far between, challenging their focus.

And ultimately, when it comes down to choosing a goalie on limited based upon limited observation, the choice will be made based upon which program the goalie came from. Some coaches figure it is more forgivable to have a blue-chipper come up short than be asked what they saw in the diamond in the rough.

And this mentality not only is found in college coaching, but in coaching at all levels including national camp selection.

Kudos to the coaches who look long and hard enough at goalies and have the guts to go with what they see.

ARM
03-20-2010, 04:19 PM
Doug Derraugh is now officially in the Coach of the Year conversation. If Cornell continues to play like they did tonight, the conversation may begin and end with him.He gets my vote.

mattj711
03-25-2010, 11:51 PM
He gets my vote.

You were right. Derraugh was named the ACHA D1 coach of the year.

http://www.ahcahockey.com/news/0910/0324w1cy.html

Congrats to Derraugh. Seeley was the runner up. He obviously has also done remarkable work at Quinnipiac.

Trillium
03-26-2010, 12:24 AM
You were right. Derraugh was named the ACHA D1 coach of the year.

http://www.ahcahockey.com/news/0910/0324w1cy.html

Congrats to Derraugh. Seeley was the runner up. He obviously has also done remarkable work at Quinnipiac.

Two excellent choices. Congrats to both.

The Prof
03-26-2010, 08:35 AM
Also agreed. There is simply not room for everyone in D1, and not everyone would be satisfied with a partial. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking cream of the crop only, despite the fact that lesser talents still see interest.

This still doesn't explain why proven top goalies are often passed over for those same limited slots by lesser ones they competed with, but who again fail to impress at the next level.

There are still a great many D-1 teams with less than stellar goaltending. To build a contending team, you need to start from the net out. The goalie that started this discussion is *only* the ECAC goalie of the year, for cryin' out loud! And only a rookie. And just about got missed.

In another recent well-known example, a local Midget goalie was actually selected over a couple of top PWHL goalies who would have jumped at the chance to go there as their first choice two years in a row ....and not surprisingly that team has since plummeted in the standings. We're talking night and day differences in talent.

Trillium,

What you have not taken into account are marks. For many schools, despite the talent available, these can be the limiting factors. I imagine they played a part in both of these examples.

The Prof

BTW67
03-26-2010, 09:50 AM
You were right. Derraugh was named the ACHA D1 coach of the year.

http://www.ahcahockey.com/news/0910/0324w1cy.html

Congrats to Derraugh. Seeley was the runner up. He obviously has also done remarkable work at Quinnipiac.

Congratulations to Coach Derraugh! He's done an amazing job with the Cornell team.

Trillium
03-26-2010, 11:11 AM
Trillium,

What you have not taken into account are marks. For many schools, despite the talent available, these can be the limiting factors. I imagine they played a part in both of these examples.

The Prof

Nope, I am well aware of that issue. Marks don't fully explain it either, though I know this does limit the top schools to some extent. I've seen better goalies bypassed who could get into McGill than others who were taken D1...which means they could have gotten into any Ivy too.

In one of the examples I gave, the goalie who really wanted to go there but was bypassed, in favour of one who is struggling in net, is now doing exceptionally well playing at an Ivy school. She had great marks and scores.

In the other example, there were far weaker schools academically who needed goalies and showed no interest, than the one she eventually caught on with and stole games for.

The trend continues. One of the Ontario goalies who just played a big part in stoning Team Canada U18's this week and was part of the summer TC camps, is incredibly still available this year.

As are 6 of the top 10 graduating goalies by save % in the PWHL. A couple of these have marks that I know could easily get them admitted to Ivys; others who I know are looking at some of the better schools at home, so marks can't be what's holding them back.

So, basically the only explanation in most cases is that coaches just do a really poor job of goalie recruiting.

5 4 Fighting
03-26-2010, 11:50 AM
D1 Coach of the year...Arnprior, Ontario.

D3 Coach of the year...Red Deer, Alberta.

Hmmmm.

Trillium
03-26-2010, 12:05 PM
D1 Coach of the year...Arnprior, Ontario.

D3 Coach of the year...Red Deer, Alberta.

Hmmmm.

D1 Runner-up Coach of the year....Toronto, Ontario

D1 2010 Championship Coach...Melfort, Saskatchewan

D3 2010 Championship Coach..... American

OnMAA
03-26-2010, 01:50 PM
D1 Coach of the year...Arnprior, Ontario.

D3 Coach of the year...Red Deer, Alberta.

Hmmmm.

Red Deer...Home of Ron McLean (Host of hockey night in Canada)
Arnprior...Home of Jim Naismith (Inventor of Basketball)

binnyrus
03-26-2010, 01:56 PM
D1 Runner-up Coach of the year....Toronto, Ontario

D1 2010 Championship Coach...Melfort, Saskatchewan

D3 2010 Championship Coach..... American

Well, Minnesota may be the "State of Hockey", but Canada is it's home.

mattj711
04-01-2010, 11:02 PM
In another recent well-known example, a local Midget goalie was actually selected over a couple of top PWHL goalies who would have jumped at the chance to go there as their first choice two years in a row ....and not surprisingly that team has since plummeted in the standings. We're talking night and day differences in talent.

Do you know how active the goalies that were/are being by-passed are in contacting schools? Doesn't really explain/excuse a coach missing them and going after lesser talent, but maybe they were too passive in the recruiting process.

Trillium
04-02-2010, 11:03 AM
Do you know how active the goalies that were/are being by-passed are in contacting schools? Doesn't really explain/excuse a coach missing them and going after lesser talent, but maybe they were too passive in the recruiting process.

Yes, in some cases with goalies (and a few other players) that are overlooked, I do think that is a big part of the problem. Ontario girls as a whole are largely clueless about the process in the US as it is so different from that in Canada. In Canada, no one thinks about the process of applying to universities until around Christmas of senior year. SATs/ACTs are unnecessary.

Many if not most of the Ontario girls who go D1 are actually surprisingly not proactive at all. They have no idea who to contact or how to go about it. I can only imagine it is that much worse in the other provinces, as there are fewer people who have gone through it before you to learn from. This also partly explains low number of D1 recruits from other provinces I'm sure.

Ontario kids think it will all happen for them somehow magically, because they see now many others ahead of them get recruited. In many cases they don't even respond promptly to coaches letters, much less initiate unofficials, though that is starting to change. Certainly, for goalies it is even more important to be proactive.

Still doesn't explain though why some top goalies who were in contact with schools have been bypassed in favour of far weaker ones.

ARM
04-02-2010, 05:55 PM
In Canada, no one thinks about the process of applying to universities until around Christmas of senior year. SATs/ACTs are unnecessary. ...
... In many cases they don't even respond promptly to coaches letters, much less initiate unofficials, though that is starting to change.I think these two in combination will greatly reduce any prospect's options. Some programs have spent all of their scholarships by the early signing period, and those spots could have been spoken for weeks or months earlier. Players in the States are often asked for a yes/no decision during the summer and "maybe" can mean that the school will move on to another potential recruit. Even for an obvious blue-chip player like Poulin, once the dollars are gone, they are gone short of a transfer out or something less ethical like yanking a scholarship from a rostered player.


Still doesn't explain though why some top goalies who were in contact with schools have been bypassed in favour of far weaker ones.Don't want to get into any specific cases, but there can be many factors at play. The most talented player may not always be the best fit for the opening. Certain kids have a personality such that they can adapt to any role, while others are quicker to decide that they are being treated unfairly and allow it to become a distraction. Many offers are for less than a full ride; some can make that work financially, others can't. We don't know specifics about grades and test scores, nor should we. And coaches make mistakes. Even in the NFL, where teams spend millions on scouting and evaluating players, there will still be high-profile busts. Goalie has to be one of the toughest positions to analyze, because the mental aspect is such a big key to being successful. The "best" goalie may not be playing the best after 12 months, but may be after 24.

OnMAA
04-02-2010, 06:22 PM
...... In Canada, no one thinks about the process of applying to universities until around Christmas of senior year. SATs/ACTs are unnecessary..... .



I think these two in combination will greatly reduce any prospect's options. Some programs have spent all of their scholarships by the early signing period.

ARM, Trillium was referring to the process in Canada, primarily Ontario. Very little work required by the student as part of the application process. In Ontario, each senior high school student is given a unique number by the school in November to log into a central system to apply to any program online by the first week of January. After that the student sits back and the rest is done for them. The high school submits the course marks off each student into a central system. Those marks are then used by the univerisities to process acceptance. There are three rounds. No testing, and no formal applications/resumes or any of that stuff required. Everything based on marks. The reason this is possible, is because all courses are standardised.

In comparison, the effort to getting into an Ivy is like comparing a mountain to a mole hill.

ARM
04-03-2010, 08:17 AM
ARM, Trillium was referring to the process in Canada, primarily Ontario.Understood. And if that is where the student athlete wants to go, presumably their current approach will serve them well. If they want to attend a school in the US that competes at NCAA D-I, the process is accelerated so it behooves them to consider factors such as degree programs available much sooner.