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taxicab
04-06-2010, 02:10 AM
Well here is food for thought (since I know nothing about hockey).
The score would have been 5-3 with 10:26 seconds left. If YOU know anything about goaltender Alex Rigsby you would know she is NOT giving
up 3 goals in 9:34. No way no how. I am pretty certain my friend with my
limited knowledge of hockey that there are plenty that would agree with my
ignorance. Now all of the sudden it is a one goal game. Everything changes my friend. This was the game changing goal. Call me all of the names in the world but, there are others who like know nothing about hockey but, would agree.

ARM
04-06-2010, 06:59 AM
We will never know what the true outcome of this game could have been. They still had a chance to win.I agree. Any single hockey game takes one path through all possible outcomes. I don't believe one can ever conclude that if a single play somewhere prior to the game's end is changed that the rest of the contest would unfold exactly the same. By the rules the two teams were playing under, Canada won. Those of us in the USA may not like it, but it is important that we accept it.

CanHockGuy
04-06-2010, 07:30 AM
I agree. Any single hockey game takes one path through all possible outcomes. I don't believe one can ever conclude that if a single play somewhere prior to the game's end is changed that the rest of the contest would unfold exactly the same. By the rules the two teams were playing under, Canada won. Those of us in the USA may not like it, but it is important that we accept it.

Spoken like a true pro Arm.;) You have to accept it as a character builder. These kids will be tougher and better for it.

Plugger
04-06-2010, 07:34 AM
Be careful where you step my friend.....When the score is 4 all, the play changes. When it's 5-4 and time is running out there is an all out assault, empty net etc. There are so many variables that you are not considering. We will never know what the true outcome of this game could have been. They still had a chance to win. I'm not trying to make anything right, it's your anger that's making a misread. What I do know is your comment was not only foolish but your lack of hockey knowledge comes through loud and clear.

That is so funny, I would say the exact same thing about you. Not much hockey knowledge coming from you, but it is clear you bleed Canadian Red, and there is nothing wrong with that. :D

CanHockGuy
04-06-2010, 07:44 AM
That is so funny, I would say the exact same thing about you. Not much hockey knowledge coming from you, but it is clear you bleed Canadian Red, and there is nothing wrong with that. :D

You can read it any way you want Plug. I was fair and respectful. Nothing to do with bleeding red, that's just what people like you want to see.

OnMAA
04-06-2010, 08:13 AM
This is my biggest pet peeve with women's hockey by a longshot. :mad: Doesn't matter if we are talking about HC events, PWHL, NCAA, Can or US tourneys, IIHF, Olympics....time and time again even in big games the qualify of the officiating provided is friggin pathetic.

The Canadian ref who was at the Olympics is a regular PWHL ref. And she is nowhere close to one of the best refs even in that league, though not one of the worst either. Although no one believes me, PWHL reffing (which most think is awful, and it is awful compared to equivalent levels in boys hockey) is still a whole lot better on average than in D1.

You would think the best officials possible would be suitably rewarded to ref the biggest games in each league. Rarely happens. Instead these are often viewed as "training opportunities".

You would think the emphasis should be on getting the best officials regardless of gender. Never happens. Has to be females even though most of them are brutal. Politics trumps competence every time. This is outright gender discrimination, worthy of lodging a human rights challenge.

At the VERY least then, what is needed is multi-camera video replay for all games. We obviously can't rely on the officials to even be in the right position, much less make the right call.

IMHO part of the reffing problem is that in the whole events, there is simply only ONE game played at the pace the final is played at, and the reffing was not able to adjust to this level. Let's face it, the US and Can U18 teams would most likely end up in the Bronze medal match in the Olympics.

My point is that you need more seasoned officials in the final than in the rest of the games, due to the caliber of teams in the final. They (the teams in the final) deserved the best crew available period, and not a crew that is still coming up the ranks. Something the IIHF may want to consisder after reviewing this event. Besides, I don't think an official should be coming from a country that is playing in the game. Would have thought that is against IIHF rules.

While this no goal clearly had an effect on momentum, and further strategy by both teams, it is not the sole deciding factor in the game. The Canadians would have had over 10 minutes to get two goals. Given the fact they were able to come back twice in this game, I don't think you can conclude they would not have if the goal had counted. Canada did in the end score 5 goals in that game.

I'd say congrats to both teams on a well played game. Two years in a row OT is needed to decide this event. That is what great competition it is, no matter what the level.

OnMAA
04-06-2010, 08:19 AM
The Canadian ref who was at the Olympics is a regular PWHL ref. And she is nowhere close to one of the best refs even in that league, though not one of the worst either. Although no one believes me, PWHL reffing (which most think is awful, and it is awful compared to equivalent levels in boys hockey) is still a whole lot better on average than in D1..

Hmmm....Go visit the Ontario Forum sometimes and you will find out that many posters think the PWHL reffing is the worst there is in Ontario.

IMHO there is good and bad reffing everwhere. Part of it is personal taste. I always find it interesting to listen to comments directed towards the ref, when you are observing a game as a neutral bystander. You should all do this from time to time, as it is a great learning tool to learn respect for the officials. You'd be surprised how silly some of the comments from the stands really are.

When my D's play on a team with an overzealous parent in the stands, I usually go and sit on the other side. Can't stand it.

Hux
04-06-2010, 08:55 AM
Sorry, if the puck is in the air which it appears, it proves nothing. Could be an optical illusion. The angle is wrong to be conclusive. Keep trying, someone out there must have a better angle but I'm afraid the only conclusive angle might be from overhead. Was anyone in the rafters?:D Again, I am aware from most of the reaction that the puck was likely in, but it has to be without question.


True enough. See below, which is the same as the shot where it looks like the puck is in the back of the net. It is actually in the air in front of the official.
http://i433.***********.com/albums/qq55/hockeyHux/Lorence2.jpg


http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs450.ash1/24786_108337075865454_100000674867871_104212_37439 31_n.jpg

Hux
04-06-2010, 09:02 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uzWPYtrTzI

OK, now I'm ready to puke. How in the hell did the goal judge miss that? Where was the official looking? :mad:

Upon further review I'm really, really ****ed that I wasn't shooting all along as Miss Coyne came in. I shot her move at the blueline, then refocused on the net and had I hit the button earlier I'd have caught the puck in the HIGHLY visible area through which it traveled. Shoulda just done a motor drive sequence. :(

Plugger
04-06-2010, 09:03 AM
Be careful where you step my friend.....When the score is 4 all, the play changes. When it's 5-4 and time is running out there is an all out assault, empty net etc. There are so many variables that you are not considering. We will never know what the true outcome of this game could have been. They still had a chance to win. I'm not trying to make anything right, it's your anger that's making a misread. What I do know is your comment was not only foolish but your lack of hockey knowledge comes through loud and clear.

WOW.....if you think your last sentence is fair and respectful, I wonder what disrespectful would be in your society.

Nevertheless, taxicab's comments are in fact reasonable, well thought out, and make sense, as do yours. Taxicab just is not as mean spirited and opinionated as you are. ;)

5 4 Fighting
04-06-2010, 09:57 AM
I would like to see the video of this so called bad call ;) You are absolutely correct but this no goal was only one of many missed calls, seemingly simple calls. What remains is what these officials are allowed to officiate after this....i say atoms.:D Hey 5 4 Fighting thanks fro showing me these smilies....Now I get it.:)

No problem, make sure you use them if you are attempting to be witty or funny. Some people are thick and don't always get the theme of your posts. They tend to get all bent out of shape over the dumbest things.

The only thing missing is the "Flip the Bird" icon. That would come in handy on many an occasion. :eek:

Trillium
04-06-2010, 11:02 AM
Hmmm....Go visit the Ontario Forum sometimes and you will find out that many posters think the PWHL reffing is the worst there is in Ontario.

IMHO there is good and bad reffing everwhere. Part of it is personal taste. I always find it interesting to listen to comments directed towards the ref, when you are observing a game as a neutral bystander. You should all do this from time to time, as it is a great learning tool to learn respect for the officials. You'd be surprised how silly some of the comments from the stands really are.

When my D's play on a team with an overzealous parent in the stands, I usually go and sit on the other side. Can't stand it.

Agree their can be a lot of bias from parents in viewing refs. There can be alot of inconsistency too as some refs call it really tight, while others let most of the physical stuff go if there are no sticks involved. However, I do also watch a lot of games as a neutral party, and over and over again you see consistently poor officiating from the same refs without consequence.

There are three big problems in women's hockey officiating in Ontario. I imagine it's not much different elsewhere, probably worse as the uneven quality of play doesn't help development of good officials:
1) Refs in women's hockey get no supervision or development whatsoever. The only "feedback" they get is from the overzealous parents you refer to. And you don't even have to know how to skate to actually get your certification! :eek: Good officiating is seen as unimportant.
2) All ref hiring and assignment is done by one of the dinosaurs in the old girls club. Highly competent male refs from top boys leagues rarely get hired nor get plum assignments, while close ties with old female friends are rewarded regardless of competence. Many are overweight and out of shape too.
3) The pace of development of the game with exponentially increasing speed and skill is far beyond the level the majority of these refs have ever played at or are capable of. So they are constantly out of position. Because of #2 and #1, even women who've played more recently at top levels can't even get their foot in the door, so the situation never improves.

wheelerdealer
04-06-2010, 11:04 AM
No problem, make sure you use them if you are attempting to be witty or funny. Some people are thick and don't always get the theme of your posts. They tend to get all bent out of shape over the dumbest things.

The only thing missing is the "Flip the Bird" icon. That would come in handy on many an occasion. :eek:


Haha nah I was just being sarcastic.

RStarr
04-06-2010, 11:19 AM
True enough. See below, which is the same as the shot where it looks like the puck is in the back of the net. It is actually in the air in front of the official.
http://i433.***********.com/albums/qq55/hockeyHux/Lorence2.jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs450.ash1/24786_108337075865454_100000674867871_104212_37439 31_n.jpg

fug the what?! craaaazzzzy! :eek:

OnMAA
04-06-2010, 11:19 AM
Agree their can be a lot of bias from parents in viewing refs. There can be alot of inconsistency too as some refs call it really tight, while others let most of the physical stuff go if there are no sticks involved. However, I do also watch a lot of games as a neutral party, and over and over again you see consistently poor officiating from the same refs without consequence.

There are three big problems in women's hockey officiating in Ontario. I imagine it's not much different elsewhere, probably worse as the uneven quality of play doesn't help development of good officials:
1) Refs in women's hockey get no supervision or development whatsoever. The only "feedback" they get is from the overzealous parents you refer to. And you don't even have to know how to skate to actually get your certification! :eek: Good officiating is seen as unimportant.
2) All ref hiring and assignment is done by one of the dinosaurs in the old girls club. Highly competent male refs from top boys leagues rarely get hired nor get plum assignments, while close ties with old female friends are rewarded regardless of competence. Many are overweight and out of shape too.
3) The pace of development of the game with exponentially increasing speed and skill is far beyond the level the majority of these refs have ever played at or are capable of. So they are constantly out of position. Because of #2 and #1, even women who've played more recently at top levels can't even get their foot in the door, so the situation never improves.

Angela James used to Ref when my kids were just switching to Girls hockey. Too bad we don't get more like her who played the game at the highest level involved.

Trillium
04-06-2010, 11:27 AM
Angela James used to Ref when my kids were just switching to Girls hockey. Too bad we don't get more like her who played the game at the highest level involved.

As far as I know, she still does ref...at least she still did a couple of years ago. I don't know why she never reffed in the PWHL, but was assigned to alot of Midget AA games.

She is one of the few female refs who I actually think does a great job, and wished she did PWHL games too. She's one who lets the physical play go, and is constantly talking to the girls on the ice, as well as to the coaches on the bench.

taxicab
04-06-2010, 11:43 AM
Both historic events in sports. I am guessing the USU18 Women will still
be feeling this 30 years later as well.

April 3, 2010:
US Women's U18 Hockey team get cheated out of GWG by
poor officials.

Sept. 10, 1972:
US Men's Basketball team gets cheated out of Gold

Under enormous pressure, the Illinois State guard sank both free throws giving the Americans a 50-49 lead, their first of the game. After the Soviets in-bounded the ball, the referees halted the game with one second remaining. The decision was made to put three seconds back on the clock. At issue was the Soviets' contention that they had signaled for a time-out between Collins' two free throws. The game officials never acknowledged the time out. The validity of whether a time-out was legally signaled for has divided passions on this game for 30 years.
After the Soviets in-bounded the ball a second time, the horn sounded signaling an apparent American victory. Moments later, the teams were ordered back on the floor because the clock had not been properly reset to show three seconds remaining. Because of this mistake by the scorer's table, the celebrating Americans stood in disbelief when they were told they had not won anything yet.
"We couldn't believe that they were giving them all these chances," said U.S. forward Mike Bantom. "It was like they were going to let them do it until they got it right."
Alexander Belov, who moments earlier had been the goat, became the hero. Rising between Americans Jim Forbes and Kevin Joyce, Belov caught a full-court pass and scored the winning lay-up as time ran out, this time for good. The controversy did not end with the game. Convinced they had been wronged, the U.S. team filed a formal protest with the International Basketball Federation. Later that afternoon, a five-member panel ruled in favor of the Soviets.
"Everything progressed according to strictly Cold War politics," said Sports Illustrated writer Gary Smith. "There were three Communist Bloc judges. It's a three to two vote. America loses. The Soviet Union wins the gold medal, and at that point the American players are facing a stark reality. Do they accept the silver medal?"
"We felt like they just did something to us that was illegal and we didn't know any other way to protest than to say that you're not about to get us to show up to take that silver medal," said team captain Kenny Davis expressing the team's ultimate response.
Thirty years later, the silver medals sit unclaimed in a vault in Lusanne, Switzerland. The intervening years have done little to hide the emotions of that historic night in Munich.

OnMAA
04-06-2010, 11:56 AM
As far as I know, she still does ref...at least she still did a couple of years ago. I don't know why she never reffed in the PWHL, but was assigned to alot of Midget AA games.

She is one of the few female refs who I actually think does a great job, and wished she did PWHL games too. She's one who lets the physical play go, and is constantly talking to the girls on the ice, as well as to the coaches on the bench.

She was the Ontario Team Red head coach back in Trois Rivieres (2001). Gillian Apps would have been on that team, along with the older sister of Rebecca Johnston. It was also the coming out party of a very young Sarah Vaillancourt who played for team Quebec as a 15 year old.

OnMAA
04-06-2010, 12:03 PM
Both historic events in sports. I am guessing the USU18 Women will still
be feeling this 30 years later as well.

April 3, 2010:
US Women's U18 Hockey team get cheated out of GWG by
poor officials.

Sept. 10, 1972:
US Men's Basketball team gets cheated out of Gold.

No offense to U18 womens hockey, but comparing an Olympic Gold medal fiasco to the U18 event for Girls Hockey is an order of magnitude difference for at least three reasons:

1 - The Munich event is at the biggest of stages, during the height of the cold war, putting the Russians vs the Americans. Everyone was watching. The Womens U18 hockey event, while important to it's supporters, is a niche event that 99% of the population has never even heard off, nor do they care.

2 - The issue at the Munich event happened at the final buzzer. The decision was about to end or not to end the game. A the U18 event there was over 10 minutes left in the game.

3 - For most of the US college players, this was the pinnacle of their career, a one time shot at Olympic or world gold. Most of the U18 players will go on to play 4 years of college, and many of them will play on the National team where they will be in many more international gold medal events.

OnMAA
04-06-2010, 12:34 PM
Both historic events in sports. I am guessing the USU18 Women will still
be feeling this 30 years later as well.

April 3, 2010:
US Women's U18 Hockey team get cheated out of GWG by
poor officials.

Sept. 10, 1972:
US Men's Basketball team gets cheated out of Gold.

In 1972 our family lived about a 5 hour car ride away from Munich. My dad worked at the site in 1971. What I remember the most from those games in order of importance/significance is the following:

1 - The Killing of the Israeli's and the subsequent botched shootout during the gettaway
2 - Valery Borzov winning the Gold in the 100 after the Americans slept in during the earlier rounds.
3 - The Mark Spitz 7 gold medals
4 - Olga Corbut, the little Russian girl put Gymnastics on the map.
5 - Reindeer Milk drinking Lasse Viren winning the 5K after a fall, and then later also winning the 10K
6 - The USA loosing the gold in Basketball in a dramatic ending.
7 - The Japanese getting upset by Ruska in Judo
8 - American Shorter winning the gold in the Marathon after an imposter tried to claim victory first. Viren finishing 5th, failing in his bid to match Zatopek's triple in '52 in Helsinki.