Norwich going DI?

[NUProf]

Re: Norwich going DI?

IMO, you could upgrade (not create from scratch) from DIII to RIT style DI for the cost of adding "two new PhD math professors".

If handled RIT style, the cost of "upgrading" an existing quality DIII program to a DI program, likely isn't much more than the "actual" cost of "PhD math professors", note that "Salary" is at best only 75% and likely 60% of the "carrying cost" of the employee, once you add in mandated cost such as workers compensation, disability, matching social security deduction, and contracted benefits such as health insurance, retirement plans, sabbaticals, etc.

I think the issue is that the NCAA's current stance isn't going to allow another RIT style upgrade in the near future. Even if it could happen, being at the top of AH is probably of less value to NU that being in the DIII "Frozen Four" on a regular basis.

[PSUChamps2001]

Re: Norwich going DI?

I think the issue is that the NCAA's current stance isn't going to allow another RIT style upgrade in the near future. Even if it could happen, being at the top of AH is probably of less value to NU that being in the DIII "Frozen Four" on a regular basis.

Dont tell that to RIT fans...

[norm1909]

Re: Norwich going DI?

I think the issue is that the NCAA's current stance isn't going to allow another RIT style upgrade in the near future. Even if it could happen, being at the top of AH is probably of less value to NU that being in the DIII "Frozen Four" on a regular basis.

I agree, and also can't imagine anyone (RIT included) really wanting a "RIT Style" program (i.e. IMO, I prefer to be a formidable frog in a small pond than a tadpole in a big pond).

[Old Rook NU'66]

Re: Norwich going DI?

I agree, and also can't imagine anyone (RIT included) really wanting a "RIT Style" program (i.e. IMO, I prefer to be a formidable frog in a small pond than a tadpole in a big pond).

Now that goes right to the heart of the issue and is spot on.

Now, to my other question. While NU certainly risks losing a competitive edge by only playing folks in the ECAC-E and might move to the ECAC-W to maintain it, doesn't the NESCAC also suffer the same fate?

I am sure it is nice to see Middlebury and Connecticut College play twice a year but what do two games against CC do to keep a competitive edge on Panther hockey or fill the seats at that new rink in Bowdoin? It seems to me that the stronger programs are hurt by this move. No?

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: Norwich going DI?

I agree, and also can't imagine anyone (RIT included) really wanting a "RIT Style" program (i.e. IMO, I prefer to be a formidable frog in a small pond than a tadpole in a big pond).

But in RIT's case, it is no secret that they have seriously looked into moving the entire athletic department to Division I. The moratorium put that on hold if they wanted to do it now.

RIT is quite a large school these days and has a lot of money through various means. So, bringing up RIT as an example to base any Norwich decision is probably not the best comparison.

[norm1909]

Re: Norwich going DI?

But in RIT's case, it is no secret that they have seriously looked into moving the entire athletic department to Division I. The moratorium put that on hold if they wanted to do it now.

RIT is quite a large school these days and has a lot of money through various means. So, bringing up RIT as an example to base any Norwich decision is probably not the best comparison.

RIT leads Atlantic Hockey (15-4-1 - GF: 73, GA: 36), but has yet to win outside their conference (0-6-0 - GF: 9, GA: 23), it is results like that, that IMO, Norwich would be "aspiring" to produce. RIT is a tadpole in DI hockey.

[NUProf]

Re: Norwich going DI?

But in RIT's case, it is no secret that they have seriously looked into moving the entire athletic department to Division I. The moratorium put that on hold if they wanted to do it now.

RIT is quite a large school these days and has a lot of money through various means. So, bringing up RIT as an example to base any Norwich decision is probably not the best comparison.

I was always of the opinion that RIT in DIII had the feeling of the old Sesame Street Song "one of these things is not like the others, one of these things doesn't belong ..."

I still don't get why Women's hockey at RIT is DIII. Isn't there a title IX issue with that?

[PrezdeJohnson09]

Re: Norwich going DI?

RIT is a tadpole in DI hockey.

I agree for now they are.

But I think if they are seriously considering moving the whole athletic program up to D-I, RIT could become quite successful and could compete just as much as the ECAC schools if they had athletic scholarships.

[NUProf]

Re: Norwich going DI?

I agree for now they are.

But I think if they are seriously considering moving the whole athletic program up to D-I, RIT could become quite successful and could compete just as much as the ECAC schools if they had athletic scholarships.

They'd sure have to serve a lot of time in the upgrade process to qualify if I read the previous posts correctly.

[joecct]

Re: Norwich going DI?

Let us travel a few hours to the west along Rt 11 in New York (a trip familiar to at least one aspiring cadet) and stop on the west side of the Raquette River.

Clarkson University, up until a few years ago, was a national power in men's D-1 ice hockey. The women's D-1 ice hockey program is nationally ranked and is in 1st place in the ECAC (the men, ahem, are at the other end of the standings).

All is well and good for the D-1 side of the house, but look at the D-III athletics. Sorry - uncompetitive. When one of CCT's sports do make the NCAA tournament it is via a tournament upset. The other sports are not well attended (in my 5 years @ CCT I think I went to 3 basketball games - they were horrid).

Is this what you want for Norwich athletics? The resouces and attention will be showered upon the D-1 program(s) -- because make no mistake, as soon as the men jump to D-1, the women's ice hockey team will not be far behind. The rest of the sports on campus will be the ugly step sister.

[PrezdeJohnson09]

Re: Norwich going DI?

Is this what you want for Norwich athletics? The resouces and attention will be showered upon the D-1 program(s) -- because make no mistake, as soon as the men jump to D-1, the women's ice hockey team will not be far behind. The rest of the sports on campus will be the ugly step sister.

That's already the case at Oswego as a D-III school.

[3rdLiner]

Re: Norwich going DI?

) D1 schools. Has a possible all-Vermont tournament ever been discussed? Maybe the 3 D3 schools (NU, Midd and Castleton) plus alternating UVM and St Mike's? That could be really fun, I think. It might take up some of the slack if the interlock ever did get ... uh, unlocked. It would be a natural for a Tuesday night game like the St Mike's and Plattsburgh games are now.

Any support for this one?


I have talked about this with other people in VT, and though I have never mentioned it here, an end of year award presented by the Governor, or other state icon, as the best DII/DIII team in VT based on their head to head record in their ECAC/NESCAC interlock games. We could call it the VT State Championship, or the Governor's Cup, or the Green Mountain Champs etc.... heading into the last weekend or prior to the first playoff game a large traveling trophy would be presented to the VT team (Castleton, Norwich, SMC, & Midd) who had the best record in the 3 games against their in state competition with tie breaker being head to head then goals scored. It would be pretty simple and it would get more press for all three programs, and stoke up a little bit more of a rivalry between all three.

This could happen and should happen IMO anyone see why this would not work or be a bad idea? How would I get something like this started?

[Ralph Baer]

Re: Norwich going DI?

Let us travel a few hours to the west along Rt 11 in New York (a trip familiar to at least one aspiring cadet) and stop on the west side of the Raquette River.

Clarkson University, up until a few years ago, was a national power in men's D-1 ice hockey. The women's D-1 ice hockey program is nationally ranked and is in 1st place in the ECAC (the men, ahem, are at the other end of the standings).

All is well and good for the D-1 side of the house, but look at the D-III athletics. Sorry - uncompetitive. When one of CCT's sports do make the NCAA tournament it is via a tournament upset. The other sports are not well attended (in my 5 years @ CCT I think I went to 3 basketball games - they were horrid).

Is this what you want for Norwich athletics? The resouces and attention will be showered upon the D-1 program(s) -- because make no mistake, as soon as the men jump to D-1, the women's ice hockey team will not be far behind. The rest of the sports on campus will be the ugly step sister.

RPI is in the same situation as Clarkson, having only m & w hockey as D-I, however, they have spent a lot of money recently upgrading their D-III facilities. http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories...storyID=840230

[norm1909]

Re: Norwich going DI?

That's already the case at Oswego as a D-III school.

I am surprised by Oswego's women's team; I had attributed Plattsburgh's Women's team incredible success in large part to men's team's historical success and legacy - and subsequently "top-of-mind awareness" among all ice hockey athletes - men and women. Certainly the fact that Kevin Houle was directly associated with much of the men's success is a factor lacking at Oswego; I still have anticipated better performance from Oswego's women's team.

[NUProf]

Re: Norwich going DI?

I am surprised by Oswego's women's team; I had attributed Plattsburgh's Women's team incredible success in large part to men's team's historical success and legacy - and subsequently "top-of-mind awareness" among all ice hockey athletes - men and women. Certainly the fact that Kevin Houle was directly associated with much of the men's success is a factor lacking at Oswego; I still have anticipated better performance from Oswego's women's team.

Norwich's women's program is becoming very good. They still have a ways to to reach the same level as the men's program, but the rather quick rise (they are in their third year as a varsity program, were in the NCAAs last year) can be attributed to administrative support and exactly what you said about Plattsburgh's success. The fact that they are coached by a former NU hockey captain who knows the institution and its values inside out doesn't hurt either. This year will see the first ever NU/Midd women's game, and NU played the Plattsburgh women earlier this year and didn't totally embarrass themselves.