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manurespreader
12-21-2009, 07:36 PM
Well to get back to the point. What if most kids do in fact have complete information, as has been described here? (to tell the truth I'd be surprised if most elite players didn't know pretty much all the in's and outs.) Does that mean that Kelly is basically wasting his time? Do the powers that be really think they can influence the decision making process somehow?

HockeyO
12-22-2009, 01:19 AM
Ask U-Mass Toot Cahoon he knows how to get around a verbel he even goes back on NLI contracts. Case Nick Grasso gets a full ride verbel at age 15 goes to USHL gets mono. Cahoon and U-mass think he lost his passion for the game and wiggle there way out of the most onesided contract NLI, it protects only the schools from other schools offering. What some of these coaches do to 15, 16 ect year olds is boarder line criminal. This player had been drafted to the OHL after recieving the vebrel line, he would of been much better off. I believe he is paying his way at one of the Atlantic D1 Teams. Not only did this kid suffer big time all the other schools talk to each other and no one took him after that, dispite having a couple allstar comback years changing his position to Defense from center. The only sure thing is signing a real contract. If we taught students to sign contracts like the NLI they would fail in the real world.

MinnesotaNorthStar
12-22-2009, 01:52 AM
You could guess that, and probably be wrong. Which is why some in the CIS would like to see the current individual scholarship limit raised ... modifying the formula so that a school keeps the maximum pool of scholarship funds they have now, but allow them to divy it up so some top recruits can get more funding than just tuition. I guess this would make it more like the NCAA system.

The CIS scholarship limits are one of the reasons Canadian schools like SFU are joining or considering joining the NCAA. I believe it was the president of UBC who said that he "was tired of losing the best BC student athletes to the US, because they couldn't match those scholarships ..."Really? I must have missed all those CIS players taken in the NFL draft this year...

Sar'nt
12-22-2009, 03:43 AM
I bet they do.

No, they don't. Not even close.

I'm guessing you either overestimate the amount of influence Minnesota has now, underestimate the amount they had decades ago, or both.

Minnesota is no longer a perennial power in a perennially dominant conference. They are now an average team in a strong conference. "But," I hear you say, "this isn't just an issue of how they've done the past few seasons on the ice." You would be correct, as there are other factors. However, Minnesota hockey, as I see it, is quickly following the same path trod by Notre Dame football--have a strong program for decades, and quickly run it into the ground due to fickleness of the school and trying to bank on name recognition. Minnesota can't recruit on its name alone anymore, just like Notre Dame can't in football.

That being said, Minnesota still is a moneymaker when it comes to NCAA hockey, and that is why they still have more influence than most (if not all) other schools. Again, though, the disparity in pull is far less than 30 years ago, in which they had an amazingly disproportionate amount of control. Now, there is plenty of money to be made with other schools, and the NCAA and most other entities are realizing it. Someone opined in another thread that without Minnesota, the WCHA tournament would be financially strapped. That is absolutely incorrect. Having attended the tournament religiously for the decade-plus ending in my senior year of high school, and attending it whenever possible in the 10+ years since then, the diversity in the attendance is striking. In 1987, the WCHA had three schools within four hours of St. Paul (four, if you break the speed limit between the Cities and Grand Forks.) Next year, it will have six. It's not just a maroon-and-gold homecoming anymore.

It's no different than any other industry--college hockey has followed diversification. The pond has gotten a lot bigger in the last thirty years, and the fish that is Minnesota has gotten a lot smaller.

Badger Abroad
12-22-2009, 03:57 AM
I may have missed something that has been discussed earlier, but in the case of injuries are MJ players any more protected/guaranteed than the NCAA kids? What would have happened in the Roy or Carle cases if they had been in/going into MJ as opposed to the NCAA? I thought the education packages MJ offers were 1 year of university for each year played in MJ. Is there something in the contract that guarantees all 4 years if they do get injured and can't play?

jnacc
12-22-2009, 05:00 AM
Ask U-Mass Toot Cahoon he knows how to get around a verbel he even goes back on NLI contracts. Case Nick Grasso gets a full ride verbel at age 15 goes to USHL gets mono. Cahoon and U-mass think he lost his passion for the game and wiggle there way out of the most onesided contract NLI, it protects only the schools from other schools offering. What some of these coaches do to 15, 16 ect year olds is boarder line criminal. This player had been drafted to the OHL after recieving the vebrel line, he would of been much better off. I believe he is paying his way at one of the Atlantic D1 Teams. Not only did this kid suffer big time all the other schools talk to each other and no one took him after that, dispite having a couple allstar comback years changing his position to Defense from center. The only sure thing is signing a real contract. If we taught students to sign contracts like the NLI they would fail in the real world.

Thanks.....looks like we now have are one example. I also provided an example of how one school reduced thier scholarship money to a player after being injured....but hey, some people just refuse to see the other side of an issue and resort to little petty personal attacks instead.


I may have missed something that has been discussed earlier, but in the case of injuries are MJ players any more protected/guaranteed than the NCAA kids? What would have happened in the Roy or Carle cases if they had been in/going into MJ as opposed to the NCAA?

All CHL players are insured for injuries and this covers their education contracts. Of course players injured before the draft and who have not signed a contract with a team are in trouble but (once again) the point I was making before was that elite players join the CHL at the age of 16 and they are taking a chance on being injured if they decide on the NCAA route and have to wait until they are 18 to play where their scholarship may not be honored or drastically reduced because of the injury.

Slap Shot
12-22-2009, 06:10 AM
It's no different than any other industry--college hockey has followed diversification. The pond has gotten a lot bigger in the last thirty years, and the fish that is Minnesota has gotten a lot smaller.

Couple flaws in your argument.

1) Minnesota was never the most dominant team on the ice year after year, despite the supposed advantages they had over other teams. iow there has always been plenty of competition.
2) Last time I checked, they won a couple NC's this very decade despite going 23 years without one prior to that.

While I think 4four4's comment contained a bit of hyperbole, your retort is pointless regarding whatever influence the program does or does not wage.

Hokydad
12-22-2009, 08:20 AM
Thousands and thousands of kids going, 99.99% success and honor and you want us all to bow down because you can find one example, trumpeted by a parent aith an attitude.

No one cares about 1 example, of which I am sure Cahoon would dispute.

The facts are simple, if you geta verbal committment froma D 1 program and want to go, it will work out. There are of course exceptions to eevry rule but please stop with the trying to tell us that a solar eclipse is a nightly event.

5mn_Major
12-22-2009, 09:17 AM
Couple flaws in your argument.

1) Minnesota was never the most dominant team on the ice year after year, despite the supposed advantages they had over other teams. iow there has always been plenty of competition.
2) Last time I checked, they won a couple NC's this very decade despite going 23 years without one prior to that.


I was going to say this...and I'd add that U MN can and always will recruit very well.

Sar'nt
12-22-2009, 09:21 AM
1) Minnesota was never the most dominant team on the ice year after year, despite the supposed advantages they had over other teams. iow there has always been plenty of competition..

I never said they were "the most dominant team on the ice year after year." I said "a perennial power."


2) Last time I checked, they won a couple NC's this very decade despite going 23 years without one prior to that..

That has nothing to do with what I said. I at no time said that Minnesota's influence was solely tied to its on-ice success (I even stated that as such initially.) In fact, if you pay attention, you'll see that I said that the program was quickly run into the ground.

The competition got more fierce, and the ability of Minnesota to pick and choose in recruiting started lowering, in the late 1990s. Hell, two years after those NCs, Minnesota's Mr. Hockey went to Wisconsin. That would have been unheard of years prior.


While I think 4four4's comment contained a bit of hyperbole, your retort is pointless regarding whatever influence the program does or does not wage.

I suggest you read it again. Carefully. The lack of success in recent years is nothing more than a symptom of, and now partial cause of, Minnesota's lack of influence.

Slap Shot
12-22-2009, 12:36 PM
In fact, if you pay attention, you'll see that I said that the program was quickly run into the ground.

I am paying attention it's simply hard to wade through all of the bull$**t. Nothing has been run into the ground, although admittedly they have not done as well the past three seasons as most of us expect. That said I don't cosider the prorgram dead and buried.


The competition got more fierce, and the ability of Minnesota to pick and choose in recruiting started lowering, in the late 1990s. Hell, two years after those NCs, Minnesota's Mr. Hockey went to Wisconsin. That would have been unheard of years prior.

Those two NC's happened years after the competition supposedly became inexplicably "fierce". Of course that sudden rise never occurred because the competition was already there up to and including the years 2002 and 2003. As for the importance of landing every Mr. Hockey candidate, two of the leading candidates for 2010 (Bjugstad and Gardiner II) have already committed to the program you state has now collapsed. Never mind the perceived quality of the entire class coming in next season.


I suggest you read it again. Carefully. The lack of success in recent years is nothing more than a symptom of, and now partial cause of, Minnesota's lack of influence.

The recruiting woes have come from bad choices made by the staff, none of which has any relation to said supposed lack influence. Sorry, but the competition didn't just rise up and bite them in the arse because it's always been there. You can wish your argument to be true until you are blue in the face, but nothing you've stated holds water.

Runninwiththedogs
12-22-2009, 05:04 PM
Thanks.....looks like we now have are one example. I also provided an example of how one school reduced thier scholarship money to a player after being injured....but hey, some people just refuse to see the other side of an issue and resort to little petty personal attacks instead.


I didn't refuse to see anything, sugar. I enjoy your revisionist approach, though. I just asked you for an example after providing one of my own and you stonewalled me. The most hilarious part? Dirty and some other person gave me an example that would have helped you way before that, but no one wanted to tell you. And it's much more cut and dried... basically "You got injured? Take a hike." And from a coach a hell of a lot more important than some moron talking about a school that barely matters (meaning a non-WCHA school, of course). Thank goodness you got bailed out by some barely literate neanderthal who clearly has an axe to grind with this "Toot" fella because his boyfriend was cut from their team.

I live for making petty personal attacks on people, so don't act like that's an insult.

And hey! There's already a like 800 threads about how much the Gophers suck, people. Let's not make another one. This is about how MJs suck. Let's try to stay on message.

jnacc
12-22-2009, 05:28 PM
I didn't refuse to see anything, sugar. I enjoy your revisionist approach, though. I just asked you for an example after providing one of my own and you stonewalled me. The most hilarious part? Dirty and some other person gave me an example that would have helped you way before that, but no one wanted to tell you. And it's much more cut and dried... basically "You got injured? Take a hike." And from a coach a hell of a lot more important than some moron talking about a school that barely matters (meaning a non-WCHA school, of course). Thank goodness you got bailed out by some barely literate neanderthal who clearly has an axe to grind with this "Toot" fella because his boyfriend was cut from their team.

I live for making petty personal attacks on people, so don't act like that's an insult.

And hey! There's already a like 800 threads about how much the Gophers suck, people. Let's not make another one. This is about how MJs suck. Let's try to stay on message.

Riiight.

Like I said before, this is only a minor tidbit in the larger picture as to why the NCAA is being taken to the proverbial woodshed by the CHL lately.

Nice to know the Gophs are so above board but hey they don't have to worry too much about the CHL.....yet.

Not insulted BTW....just amused.

Runninwiththedogs
12-22-2009, 05:41 PM
Riiight.

Like I said before, this is only a minor tidbit in the larger picture as to why the NCAA is being taken to the proverbial woodshed by the CHL lately.

Nice to know the Gophs are so above board but hey they don't have to worry too much about the CHL.....yet.

Not insulted BTW....just amused.

Like I give a **** about the Gophers.

Dirty
12-22-2009, 06:10 PM
The NCAA is plain and simple f^cked. They may as well stop sponsoring hockey. CHL is obviously better at everything, I really don't understand why the NCAA even tries any more.

brianvf
12-22-2009, 06:25 PM
The most hilarious part? Dirty and some other person gave me an example that would have helped you way before that, but no one wanted to tell you. And it's much more cut and dried... basically "You got injured? Take a hike." And from a coach a hell of a lot more important than some moron talking about a school that barely matters (meaning a non-WCHA school, of course).

Sedevie?

jnacc
12-22-2009, 07:10 PM
Like I give a **** about the Gophers.

Like any of us give a **** about the Gophers?!?!

jnacc
12-22-2009, 07:13 PM
The NCAA is plain and simple f^cked. They may as well stop sponsoring hockey. CHL is obviously better at everything, I really don't understand why the NCAA even tries any more.

Nah, things are not quite at that kind of bottom......yet!


Easily solved by just making CHL players eligible......simple really. :D

Dirty
12-22-2009, 07:28 PM
Easily solved by just making CHL players eligible......simple really. :D

Even better, the US could just invade Canada and dissolve the CHL. Sure Canucks would whine <strike>about</strike> aboot it for a bit, but we could just give them a ball of yarn and they'd forget their troubles. Canadians are like cats in that way.

jnacc
12-22-2009, 07:35 PM
Even better, the US could just invade Canada and dissolve the CHL. Sure Canucks would whine <strike>about</strike> aboot it for a bit, but we could just give them a ball of yarn and they'd forget their troubles. Canadians are like cats in that way.

Yeah we could, but like our track record isn't all that great lately......you know Iraq and Afghanistan?