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FreddyFoyle
12-19-2009, 10:11 AM
Are players who choose the OHL over college hockey scholarships really getting best of both worlds?

http://news.therecord.com/Sports/article/645999

Yes, I've read that article before, and the writer's focus is all over the map, and he doesn't include all of the facts that might get in the way of the point he's trying to make.

First, yes the OHL has new rules (that match long-time WHL rules) that an OHL graduate is entitled to one year's tuition for each year played. That is from the OHL. Each team is allowed to bump up that education as much as they want beyond the minimum levels. Some OHL teams are tightwads, some are more generous. I can tell you that there are former Major Junior players in the CIS right now with education packages in the range of $15,000 per year thanks to add-ons from their former teams, which is pretty close to a free ride in Canada.

Don't forget, the top CIS hockey conferences that do the most recruiting, and put more athletic scholarships on the table to supplement the CHL packages, are the AUS and Canada West and not the OUA, which this navel-gazing writer in Kitchener ignores.

The writer spends a lot of inches ridiculing how seriously his example players are taking university WHILE playing in the OHL. Well, duh, their focus right now is on the time and travel commitments involved with Major Junior hockey, and not school. You can't play for a junior team and be a full-time university student, and be successful at both. Of course lots of these players take online courses - the flexible time conditions for those courses makes them easier to manage. It is the same reason working people take online courses.

As for the percentage of former OHL players who actually go on to post secondary education, is it so different from the youth population in general? We don't know, because the writer doesn't bring that up. Not all kids go to university or college, so why should we expect more from hockey players?
Besides, if you are one of the hundreds to thousands of former OHL players playing minor pro hockey up through to the NHL, well you are "working" right now, so education isn't your priority. Of course, we all hope that they get some sort of post-secondary education when they finally retire from hockey, but we would wish that upon any of our young people.

jnacc
12-19-2009, 10:39 AM
Are players who choose the OHL over college hockey scholarships really getting best of both worlds?

http://news.therecord.com/Sports/article/645999

And the OHL always counters with how many players are actually getting a full ride on any given NCAA team.....usually less than half. They will further argue that the marginal OHL players (the one and done as this article refers to) would have either received no scholarship money from the NCAA (walk on player) or very little.

The article did make a good point though that very very few current OHL players are taking full course loads but of course the OHL would correctly point out that no USHL/NAHL or Canadian Junior Tier II players are either and if they are taking any courses, it on their dime so a win for the O.

Look it, lets throw out a scenerio that involves an OHL club, the Plymouth Whalers in a battle with a CCHA school like Michigan State. They are both after an elite 15 year old player from the Detroit area

M.S.U., through their various contacts lets the player know that they are interested and will provide a full ride. The kids parents are estatic and the NTDP is offering a spot.

Now in comes the Whalers. No 3rd party contacts to worry about, they meet the kid face to face. They ask him (and parents) what his ultimate goal is. Kid responds NHL, parents hesitate and say education is important too and MSU is offering a full ride and have sent many players on to the NHL.

Plymouth responds by saying we can give your son a full ride too and we can provide him with the best competition and coaching as soon as next year. Why wait until he is 18?? The kid is now very open to the possibiltiy of playing in the OHL. Parents are still hesitant.

Parents confer, talk to NCAA contacts who state that the CHL is nothing more than a meat grinder, if the kid gets hurt good bye team and his so called education money and most OHL players never use their school money anyway because they sign pro contracts and end up in the lower minor leagues like the UHL/IHL for a few years and then hit the street unemployed without possibly even a high school diploma let alone a degree.

Parents now determined to have son play NCAA. They receive a call from an agent who offeres to represent their son. Parents naturally agree, tell agent he is going the NCAA route but that the OHL is interested.

Agent meets with family. Lays out all options for the son. Parents express their concern about the OHL route so the agent sets up meeting between the Whalers and family.

Parents state why they don't want son playing in the O.

He may get hurt and lose his education money.

Plymouth responds that he will be insured and if career ending injury were to happen his full ride will be honored. Plymouth asks is Michigan State willing to extend the same gurantee if the kid is hurt playing for the NTDP next year. Would the USHL offer the same guarantee if he should decide to play there?

Parents then say that there are too many games in the OHL, too long a schedule and that may hurt their son's grades.

Plymouth answers that the NTDP schedule is just as long, the USHL's almost as long (8 less games) and that 90% of Plymouth's games are on the weekend, meaning that the kid will miss very few classes. The team also employs tutors and an education co-ordinator to help their players. They state that the OHL grad rate from high school is over 96% and that Plymouth personally ensures that all highschool age kids are attending class and getting the proper grades needed. Once a player graduates, the Whalers will pick up full costs for college while he is playing.

The son chimes in and says he prefers the longer schedule and feels it will help him further develop his hockey skills.

Parents still concerned and ask about trades. Plymouth offers them a no trade contract.

Parents state that MSU's tutition/living expense is worth 25k a year. Plymouth matches that. Parents then ask what about if their son signs a pro contract, wouldn't the money be lost? Whalers respond by asking would MSU honor their scholarship money if son signs a pro contract? Answer is obviously not.

Plymouth says they'll do one better than Michigan State though. They will allow their son to sign any minor league contract, with the exception of a two way AHL contract, and their son could play minor pro hockey for up to 18months before jeapordizing his education money. Furthermore, they will allow their son to sign a ATO contract with the AHL and of course he can attend any pro camp his heart desires, including of course an NHL camp after he is drafted, with all costs picked up by the pro team...something NCAA players are not allowed to do.

Parents waiver, and finally relent after the son states he really wants to play in the O.

Sorry about the length, but that is the basic jist of it (for elite players anyway) and why the NCAA is in tough, and probably over their heads competing with the CHL.

FreddyFoyle
12-19-2009, 11:49 AM
I believe jnacc has very accurately detailed above the OHL (or WHL or QMJHL) pitch when it comes to an elite prospect weighing the NCAA over Major Junior, and the challenge Paul Kelly is facing. Fortunately in the NCAA's case not every CHL team has those kinds of financial resources, but many do.

Terrierbyassociation
12-19-2009, 12:06 PM
Plymouth responds that he will be insured and if career ending injury were to happen his full ride will be honored. Plymouth asks is Michigan State willing to extend the same gurantee if the kid is hurt playing for the NTDP next year. Would the USHL offer the same guarantee if he should decide to play there?



If you get hurt they honor your schollie. They don't want recruits thinking if they get hurt they'll lose their ride too.

HarleyMC
12-19-2009, 02:16 PM
Yes, I've read that article before, and the writer's focus is all over the map, and he doesn't include all of the facts that might get in the way of the point he's trying to make.

I think the article provides a minimal level of validity based upon what the author is measuring. The article includes specific and objective OHL data and his argument appears to have merit based upon the research. However, further validation is warranted.


I can tell you that there are former Major Junior players in the CIS right now with education packages in the range of $15,000 per year thanks to add-ons from their former teams, which is pretty close to a free ride in Canada.

Do you have any valid and reliable data to substantiate that?


Don't forget, the top CIS hockey conferences that do the most recruiting, and put more athletic scholarships on the table to supplement the CHL packages, are the AUS and Canada West and not the OUA, which this navel-gazing writer in Kitchener ignores.

However, the author's data still stands in regards to his research sample from the OHL. The summary data seems to indicate that the emphasis on hockey development results in relatively negative educational enrollment outcomes. I haven't seen anyone provide indisputable data on this thread to challenge the author's correlating data.


The writer spends a lot of inches ridiculing how seriously his example players are taking university WHILE playing in the OHL. Well, duh, their focus right now is on the time and travel commitments involved with Major Junior hockey, and not school. You can't play for a junior team and be a full-time university student, and be successful at both. Of course lots of these players take online courses - the flexible time conditions for those courses makes them easier to manage. It is the same reason working people take online courses.

I didn't sense a "ridiculing" style in the article. I think the author seeks to point out the negative aspects of the OHL educational incentive program that may appear, to some individuals, superior compared to what the American universities and colleges offer students. The author points out that enrollment in online education, which to be fair can be equally or more difficult than land based courses, is low among OHL players which supports his point that hockey not education is the main focus of OHL players. My personal view is being an NCAA full time student/athlete is much more challenging and beneficial to an individual's overall cognitive, psychological and physical life span development than simply playing hockey.


As for the percentage of former OHL players who actually go on to post secondary education, is it so different from the youth population in general? We don't know, because the writer doesn't bring that up. Not all kids go to university or college, so why should we expect more from hockey players?
Besides, if you are one of the hundreds to thousands of former OHL players playing minor pro hockey up through to the NHL, well you are "working" right now, so education isn't your priority. Of course, we all hope that they get some sort of post-secondary education when they finally retire from hockey, but we would wish that upon any of our young people.

The US rate of post secondary enrollment (http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=51) after HS currently fluctuates between 62-69%. The authors calculations indicated a much lower enrollment (18%) after OHL players leave the league. That seems to indicate that the vast majority of players do not take advantage of the OHL educational packages and illustrates a significant trend representing negative educational enrollment outcomes related to the OHL educational incentive program.

MinnesotaNorthStar
12-19-2009, 02:46 PM
While I'm on the holier-than-thou vein, what makes the NCAA morally superior when some teams can offer full-ride athletic scholarships while no one in the CIS is allowed to offer more than the value of tuition and required fees? The best Canadian soccer, basketball, football, baseball, swimming, track and golf players are all in the NCAA because of the scholarship differential. I would speculate that only Canadian volleyball is on par with NCAA schools (not sure why), and the good CIS hockey programs - thanks to their partnership with the CHL education program.There are very few student athletes on a full ride. Most have partial scholarships.

And I would venture to guess the best Canadian football and basketball players play in the NCAA because that's where they are most likely to get noticed by NFL and NBA scouts.

jnacc
12-19-2009, 03:17 PM
If you get hurt they honor your schollie. They don't want recruits thinking if they get hurt they'll lose their ride too.

They would honor only their own players scholies if they were hurt but not those of recruits who have only verbally committed. Remember that players cannot officially sign until they are in their last semester as a junior in highschool. I doubt even then that a school would honor a scholy of a signed recruit.

Hokydad
12-19-2009, 04:23 PM
They would honor only their own players scholies if they were hurt but not those of recruits who have only verbally committed. Remember that players cannot officially sign until they are in their last semester as a junior in highschool. I doubt even then that a school would honor a scholy of a signed recruit.

Its a lot less then half getting full rides, a lot less then half

jnacc
12-19-2009, 04:36 PM
Its a lot less then half getting full rides, a lot less then half

Probably right. NCAA teams are allowed to give out 18 full scholarships. Most teams carry 25 players. I would venture to guess that any where from 10 to 12 per team are on full rides.

What is for certain though is that elite players are offered full rides, and that is what we are mainly discussing here.

solovsfett
12-19-2009, 05:35 PM
No the NCAA players do not get more practice time.....as many of said before, CHL players are on the ice much sooner and end later than the NCAA. Over the course of a year, CHLers practice more as well as play more games.

I think that the NCAA made some notable gains over the past twenty years (I'd like to see a study showing the number of college grads in the NHL in 1990 and compare it to today) but another trend that has developed over the past few years is the number of elite U.S. born talent that is turning its back on the NCAA in favor of the CHL......hence the creation of College Hockey Inc and the possible truce with the CHL.

OK - from when Wisconsin begins practice until their final game, say 1st week of Oct through last week of March those months you can choose any CHL team you want, and I guarantee UW gets more practice time in.

I'd mainly like to hear from the players themselves.

If we interviewed Joe Pavelski, Dany Heatley, Chris Drury, Thomas Vanek, et al.....would they do anything different? If we interviewed Sam Ganger and Patrick Kane, what would they say they'd have done different?

who knows, perhaps nothing at all, but I think at the end of the day what these guys say once they make the show would state our cases better than what we can as fans of our respective teams.

Runninwiththedogs
12-19-2009, 06:21 PM
They would honor only their own players scholies if they were hurt but not those of recruits who have only verbally committed. Remember that players cannot officially sign until they are in their last semester as a junior in highschool. I doubt even then that a school would honor a scholy of a signed recruit.

Denver has honored David Carle's scholarship.

Beer Pong Horn
12-19-2009, 06:36 PM
Denver has honored David Carle's scholarship.

Yes, but that was a highly publicized case of one of the top recruits in the country, and Denver is making good use of his skills behind the bench for that scholarship. I would guess his situation is extremely rare.

Runninwiththedogs
12-19-2009, 07:10 PM
Yes, but that was a highly publicized case of one of the top recruits in the country, and Denver is making good use of his skills behind the bench for that scholarship. I would guess his situation is extremely rare.

But it happened. SO THERE.

dggoddard
12-19-2009, 10:50 PM
Yes, but that was a highly publicized case of one of the top recruits in the country, and Denver is making good use of his skills behind the bench for that scholarship. I would guess his situation is extremely rare.Plenty of cases over the years of players in other sports having career ending injuries before entering school and securing academic or other types of scholarships to get the players degrees.

Beer Pong Horn
12-19-2009, 11:12 PM
Plenty of cases over the years of players in other sports having career ending injuries before entering school and securing academic or other types of scholarships to get the players degrees.

Does it happen frequently in hockey? I honestly don't know whether this is common, or if it's covered in NCAA bylaws somewhere. David Carle's case is the only one I've heard of recently, though it's possible that other players have had similar issues and the schools don't publicize their continued scholarships.

4four4
12-19-2009, 11:40 PM
As a fan of a small D-1 school, I can assure you that it is all for the inclusion of CHL players. It stands to reason that most would be since it would vastly increase the talent pool and all would benefit from it.

Why would Ivy league schools be against it? If a player has the grades, they could care less what system they come from.

What in your mind would be the downside of allowing CHL players in???

One of the MAJOR reasons why the NCAA does not allow CHL players is? Any guesses? Who is the University of Minnesota.

5mn_Major
12-19-2009, 11:55 PM
Only 6 of the 29 players at the USA Under 20 Camp are from Minnesota this week.

MN 6
MI 6
MA 3
NY 3
NJ 2
ILL 1
NV 1
OK 1
CA 1
MO 1
TX 1
WA 1
GA 1
OR 1

Compared to the 1980 USA Olympic Team (http://www.myuseless-info.com/usp1980usarost.html)

MN 12
MI 3
MA 4
WI 1

Nothings worse than someone who piles on...of course except for someone who piles on late. :)

Much of this trend doesn't have to do so much with a decline in interest in youth hockey in MN. But rather the massive increase in ice hockey interest nationwide over the last 20 years. Prior to the 70s, there was even more disparity in Canadian hockey vs. the low level of interest in the US as a whole.

Any recent perceived trend is too variable IMO to say its down in MN specifically. What was it just 4 or so years ago that Minnesotans made up more than half of all players in the Froz Four? An incredible number by any measure...and one which would be extremely unlikely to match in any other sport by any other state.

jnacc
12-20-2009, 09:04 AM
One of the MAJOR reasons why the NCAA does not allow CHL players is? Any guesses? Who is the University of Minnesota.

This aint 1979 anymore. Minnesota doesn't have even a 1/3rd of the influence it once did. Time to move on.

Terrierbyassociation
12-20-2009, 10:40 AM
Denver has honored David Carle's scholarship.

USC Football has honored Frankie Telfort's, and every single Trojan that has had their career ended by injury or medical condition.

dggoddard
12-20-2009, 02:25 PM
Does it happen frequently in hockey? I honestly don't know whether this is common, or if it's covered in NCAA bylaws somewhere. David Carle's case is the only one I've heard of recently, though it's possible that other players have had similar issues and the schools don't publicize their continued scholarships.Travis Roy was the most famous example. Injured just 11 seconds into his college career at Boston University.

http://www.travisroyfoundation.org/pages/travis-bio.html