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Slap Shot
12-18-2009, 05:39 AM
I didn't know the quality of hockey in this state is dependent solely on the University of Minnesota-Twin Cities' head coach.

How did you glean that from my post? Christ, if a Gopher fan breathes wrong we're accused being arrogant. ;)

ddg said that talent in the state might be down as evidenced by recent struggles at the University of Minnesota. I said there's plenty of evidence to suggest the state is still producing plenty of talent (i.e. total# of NHL draft picks, # of MN players in Div I across the board and total # of MN players in the pros). I then said that the recent struggles at the U probably have more to do with the coach as well as increased competition for MN players from other MN Div I programs than the talent that's actually coming out of MN.

Hokydad
12-18-2009, 06:55 AM
NHL scouts have said the NCAA might be even a better league than the AHL.

That might be a reach.

When a team graduates their players, a few go ECHL, a couple to AHL, maybe 1 or 2. Most to ECHL then done. Stars on last years teams, like Jason Lawrence from BU etc cant even hook up on ECHL teams.



Every AHL kid would be a superstar in D1.

manurespreader
12-18-2009, 10:31 AM
Well for whatever reason it is true that the absolute top kids from Michigan at least go to MJ. There are plenty of good D-1 schools in this state and the development programs are very solid, with lots of good players and knowledgeable hockey people. So it seems to me that whether NCAA fans think D-1 hockey is equal, in the minds of the best recruits at least, it isn't.

You can say that this is because they have bad information, but what if that's not true? I don't see the season getting longer or the number of hours they spend in practice changing much.
I do agree with swami, a great player will get to the NHL regardless, but what about players that develop a little slower? Might it be that NHL people stop being interested in a kid when he reaches say 24 yrs old.?

Puck Swami
12-18-2009, 11:20 AM
what about players that develop a little slower? Might it be that NHL people stop being interested in a kid when he reaches say 24 yrs old.?

While Hockey players do peak in their mid 20s, most players at the elite level have been regularly evaluated since they were teenagers. If you haven't been able to secure a regular spot in the NHL by your mid 20s, your chances of ever doing so drop pretty rapidly. Of course, there are exceptions, but for the most part, most mid 20s players know if they are destined for the show or not.

FreddyFoyle
12-18-2009, 11:36 AM
Something that hasn't been discussed on this thread yet, but does come up with the hockey talking heads from time to time on the various Canadian sports networks, is the effect of the salary cap -- NHL teams for short term cap needs are using more and more "cheap" young players so they can dump more expensive third and fourth liners. Skill wise a potential star in the CHL might be already as good as that fourth liner, and he's a heck of a lot cheaper.

So following that thought process you encourage your high draft picks to go CHL and not NCAA so they can "develop quicker" and you can get them in NHL lineup faster, like the 8 or so under-20's in the NHL this year that their teams wouldn't release to Team Canada for the World Juniors. Maybe that's not the best route for the personal development of the young man, but it suits the business needs of the NHL team.

As well, each fall you can bring that hot prospect to your NHL camp, play him up to 9 games in the NHL regular season, and then send him back to the CHL if he's not ready. Try to do that with an NCAA player ... can't be done. So for an NHL team, having a prospect in the CHL is much more flexible than "letting" him develop in the NCAA.

On the flip side, NHL teams have no qualms raiding NCAA teams for free agents that might have got overlooked, even talking to the player while they are in the teams playoff stretch - Maine's Teddy Purcell for example.

FreddyFoyle
12-18-2009, 11:48 AM
Every AHL kid would be a superstar in D1.

Uh ... no. Not "every" kid. Big defenceman Josh Kidd played in the OHL with Erie, got drafted in the 7th round by LA, and as a 20 year old played all of last season (well, 33 games) with the AHL's Manchester Monarchs. This season he was a free agent and got cut at another AHL team's camp, so he is now attending and playing for the University of New Brunswick. Although his game has been hampered by injury, he's not yet and may not be a "superstar" in the CIS, which would certainly be comparable to the NCAA at least ...

Yes, it is just one example, but as you can tell I'm not a big fan of broad stroke words like "every".

FreddyFoyle
12-18-2009, 12:01 PM
Similarly, Denny Johnston was a good but not star player in the WHL. Comes to UNB, plays five years, is a good hard-working third liner, wins a national championship and has a cumulative GPA close to 4.0. After graduation he turns pro in the Coast, gets called up to the AHL's Monarchs, and excels as a third liner until he breaks a bone in his arm/hand. This season he retires before the first game because his arm/hand (I can't remember exactly who bone it is ...) won't heal properly affecting his game. So off he goes to medical school ...

The moral of the story? Johnston was looking at a potential decent AHL career, yet he was never a star in the CIS (although recognized as a key playoff performer).

Runninwiththedogs
12-18-2009, 05:58 PM
How did you glean that from my post? Christ, if a Gopher fan breathes wrong we're accused being arrogant. ;)


Stop breathing wrong. End of problem!

Beer Pong Horn
12-18-2009, 06:20 PM
Stop breathing. End of problem!

Sure this isn't what you were going for? :D

jnacc
12-18-2009, 06:38 PM
The AHL is a huge step up from college hockey (Major A as well). There is no arguement about it.....it is simply fact and no NHL coach, GM or scout would say otherwise.


With the talent base freefalling in New England and being bled almost dry (for the elite talent anyway) in Michigan, Penn and N.Y., can Minnesota supply the needed numbers for all NCAA programs?

Don't think so.

I cannot understand how anyone would be opposed to allowing CHL players into the NCAA.

dggoddard
12-18-2009, 08:35 PM
I cannot understand how anyone would be opposed to allowing CHL players into the NCAA.
I'm guessing the Ivy league would be against it. Smaller D-I schools that don't plan on bringing in Canadians will probably be against it. Schools that are seeing the talent gap shrink between themselves & Michigan/Minnesota/Maine will probably be against it. WCHA teams that happy with the status quo will be against it.

Long and the short of it is, so what if the NCAA isn't the first choice for the elite player who would only stick around for a year or two at most. Look at the Pairwise right now. Quinnipiac, Yale, Bemidji, Ferris State & Union would all be in if the season ended today. These schools are benefiting from the current system.

Miami, Denver & BC seem to be doing OK. UMD, Mankato, SCSU & Bemidji have closed the gap on the Gophers. Ferris & Lake State have closed ground on Michigan.

solovsfett
12-18-2009, 10:42 PM
They dont get twice the practice time and weight room time

Go look at the London Knoghts schedule and then tell us that.

They are playing vs older and stronger kids because they are in fact, older.

When they are 22 year old juniors or seniors, the major junior kids are playing against 22 year old ahl kids, who are slightly above the ncaa kids

uhm, yes NCAA player's get much more practice time than Canadian MJ players do.

I would think Paul Kelly has some great ammunition to use in terms of "advertising".

Look at all the NHL talent Wisconsin, North Dakota, Minnesota, Denver, CC, Boston U, Boston College, Vermont, Harvard, Michigan, Michigan State, LSSU, Northern Michigan, Michigan Tech, SCSU has produced over the past 30 years.

When you peruse through starting line-ups in the NHL for all the teams today, it seems to me there are more NCAA player's than ever before.

and it's trending upwards.

solovsfett
12-18-2009, 10:49 PM
Extending the NCAA season is never going to happen. College hockey is already the longest season on the NCAA calender. If anything was going to happen the number of games would be reduced.

One has to question if the Gophers problems in recent season is related to a decline in the top end quality of Minnesota born players. Certainly less Minnesota and Mass. players are elite USHL or USNDT players than ever before.

How many families have the money to spend on producing an elite college level hockey player these days? Some have suggested that it can cost $200,000 in equipment, camps, rink fees, travel & tournaments for 12 years of youth hockey.

.02

no decline in top-end talent in Minnesota.

but....unlike say 1990 where the U of MN was primarily fending off Wisconsin, UMD and Nodak for their in-staters, SCSU, Mankato, Bemidji, CC, DU, have become serious players for MN-born kids, whether elite guys (see Cullen and Parrish at SCSU), or under-the-radar type guys (see CC w/Lucia as Coach, or DU and Mankato in the last say 10 years).

Not only that, but every once in a while a Mich, MSU, or BC/BU/UNH/Maine comes out west to nab a kid for their team.

Minnesota may retain many of the guys they want, but it isn't nearly as much of a wall around the U as you could say it was in most of Woog's seasons as coach.

I'm late to this thread and haven't read all the posts yet. I'm sure rodent fans have already chimed in on this

4four4
12-18-2009, 11:44 PM
That might be a reach.

When a team graduates their players, a few go ECHL, a couple to AHL, maybe 1 or 2. Most to ECHL then done. Stars on last years teams, like Jason Lawrence from BU etc cant even hook up on ECHL teams.



Every AHL kid would be a superstar in D1.

A better league doesn't mean better talent. Many people on this message bored believe the college game is better than the NHL/AHL. So yes scouts can say it is a better league.

jnacc
12-19-2009, 01:04 AM
I'm guessing the Ivy league would be against it. Smaller D-I schools that don't plan on bringing in Canadians will probably be against it. Schools that are seeing the talent gap shrink between themselves & Michigan/Minnesota/Maine will probably be against it. WCHA teams that happy with the status quo will be against it.
.

As a fan of a small D-1 school, I can assure you that it is all for the inclusion of CHL players. It stands to reason that most would be since it would vastly increase the talent pool and all would benefit from it.

Why would Ivy league schools be against it? If a player has the grades, they could care less what system they come from.

What in your mind would be the downside of allowing CHL players in???

jnacc
12-19-2009, 01:08 AM
uhm, yes NCAA player's get much more practice time than Canadian MJ players do.

When you peruse through starting line-ups in the NHL for all the teams today, it seems to me there are more NCAA player's than ever before.

and it's trending upwards.

No the NCAA players do not get more practice time.....as many of said before, CHL players are on the ice much sooner and end later than the NCAA. Over the course of a year, CHLers practice more as well as play more games.

I think that the NCAA made some notable gains over the past twenty years (I'd like to see a study showing the number of college grads in the NHL in 1990 and compare it to today) but another trend that has developed over the past few years is the number of elite U.S. born talent that is turning its back on the NCAA in favor of the CHL......hence the creation of College Hockey Inc and the possible truce with the CHL.

dggoddard
12-19-2009, 08:06 AM
As a fan of a small D-1 school, I can assure you that it is all for the inclusion of CHL players. It stands to reason that most would be since it would vastly increase the talent pool and all would benefit from it.

Why would Ivy league schools be against it? If a player has the grades, they could care less what system they come from.

What in your mind would be the downside of allowing CHL players in???I don't think its important that the NCAA has the greatest players in the world. Let the players who want to play professionally go to Canada, because at the end of the day money gap between what the CHL pays their star players is only going to go up. Sooner or later some OHL team will pay some kid $1 million. The OHL is only going to become more professional and even the lower players will receive decent incentives.

Below is a snapshot of OHL attendance. Factor in sponsorship and other revenue streams and there's obviously a lot of money available to pay players.




Top 5 Avg. Attendance

1. London 9007
2. Ottawa 7865
3. Kitchener 6246
4. Windsor 5063
5. Oshawa 4794

Bottom 5 Avg. Attendance

1. Plymouth 2343
2. Mississauga 2393
3. Brampton 2405
4. Owen Sound 2418
5. Niagara 2962

FreddyFoyle
12-19-2009, 09:01 AM
I don't think its important that the NCAA has the greatest players in the world. Let the players who want to play professionally go to Canada, because at the end of the day money gap between what the CHL pays their star players is only going to go up. Sooner or later some OHL team will pay some kid $1 million. The OHL is only going to become more professional and even the lower players will receive decent incentives.

Below is a snapshot of OHL attendance. Factor in sponsorship and other revenue streams and there's obviously a lot of money available to pay players.

I would love to see someone post some actual facts about CHL teams paying players, instead of repeating the same urban legends, hearsay and assumptions. And by paying, I mean above the league-approved per diems for meals and travel costs.

Now do CHL teams offer generous education packages, in the tens of thousands of dollars per academic year to encourage kids to pick the CHL over the NCAA? Yes, some do, but what is so wrong with that? NCAA teams are dangling "full ride" scholarships, without perhaps reminding parents that that money might disappear if the student-athlete's performance drops and they decide to give that money to another more worthy player. Oh, and that NCAA team might require the kid to spend some time in the USHL first. Sorry about that, we didn't make that clear?

While I'm on the holier-than-thou vein, what makes the NCAA morally superior when some teams can offer full-ride athletic scholarships while no one in the CIS is allowed to offer more than the value of tuition and required fees? The best Canadian soccer, basketball, football, baseball, swimming, track and golf players are all in the NCAA because of the scholarship differential. I would speculate that only Canadian volleyball is on par with NCAA schools (not sure why), and the good CIS hockey programs - thanks to their partnership with the CHL education program.

FreddyFoyle
12-19-2009, 09:24 AM
If you are a Canadian kid who wants to work in Canada, a Canadian degree is a more well recognized option in most cases. Harvard and Yale are great degrees in both countries, but a kid who wants to work in Toronto after hockey is probably better off going to the University of Toronto than he is going to BU or Wisconsin. Of course, if the Canadian kid wants to work in the USA, an American degree is a better option.

Swami - someone who actually applies common sense when talking about Canadians.

Most Canadian employers (and I used to be one) will not rate a degree on a resume from an American college over one from a Canadian university unless it is an Ivy League school. We're pretty comfortable with our education system here, and don't look that favourably on the American model. Sorry. So Swami is correct, if you want to work in Canada your degree probably should be Canadian, unless it carries that Ivy League brand.

I've had friends who wanted to work in the States, and do now, but most Canadians prefer to live north of the border (and visit the American sunbelt and the Caribbean, including Cuba, in the winter). Our polls show that we prefer our life with universal health care, secular politics, and less-powerful lobby groups -- and no NRA. One shouldn't assume every Canadian hockey player wants to get an American degree so he can work in the States. The kid wants to make the NHL and sensible parents want him to get an education, and the CHL-CIS partnership is not the worst way to have your cake and eat it too.

I think the focus of Paul Kelly and company should be to try to keep American kids in the NCAA, and not put too much energy trying to persuade Canadians to come south of the border.

miker
12-19-2009, 09:41 AM
Are players who choose the OHL over college hockey scholarships really getting best of both worlds?

http://news.therecord.com/Sports/article/645999