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bothman
12-17-2009, 03:33 PM
As a Harvard fan, we have certainly lost some recent recruits to MJ (Zach Mitchell immediately comes to mind).

With that said, we also lost Jesse Lane back in the warly 90s to Major Junior a few weeks into his freshman season. At the time he was a fairly coveted recruit across the college hockey ranks.

Although Jesse did give up his ability to play college hockey, he was allowed to come back to Harvard and finish his degree (similar to what a Louis Leblanc will do if he leaves early as prdicted).

I know that the crux of this discussion focuses on the decision whether to attend college or MJ prior while still in high school, but I'm wondering (Kenny Ryan at BC comes to mind) if colleges can preclude the ability of a student to come back to get the degree if that student leaves for MJ as opposed to turning pro.

Thoughts?

HarleyMC
12-17-2009, 03:40 PM
I don't see much hope in anyone negotiating to stop the exodus from the US to MJ. The important thing here is what is the motive behind it? The NHL has always favored the Canada pipeline anyway because of the experience factor. Is it any wonder that the value of being a student/athlete has become secondary to focusing on hockey skills development alone and having a better chance at making the big cash in the NHL?

Hokydad
12-17-2009, 04:04 PM
Major Junior players get 2-3 practices per week, because they are playing three or four games per week. College players get 5-6 practices a week, because they are only playing game twice a week. Simple math.

Weight room time and dedicated strength and conditioning coaching is also far better in the NCAA because there is more time for it.

And the vast majority of Major Junior players never get to the AHL to play against 22 year olds. Most of the them end up out of of hockey at age 19 or 20. A tiny handful will see more pro hockey, and some more will go to CIS hockey but the fact remains that only 20% of all MJ players will ever get a university degree, compared with 80% of NCAA players.

Major Junior is a good route for kids who can't handle college work and its a good route to the NHL not because it's a superior experience to the NCAA, but because more of those in NHL power chose that route themseleves.

A great player will get to the NHL no matter what route he chooses. But most players in both systems won't get there. So for the 90-95% who don't make it to the NHL, it seems to me that getting the degree is a better overall strategy.

Major junior kids season and camps etc are twice as long + as college hockey. I can asure you that a kid on the London knights is getting more quality practices per year then any kid on Boxton College. I was given the handout by the Hunter brothers that showed exactly how many times they lift, how many times they practice, how many times they see their sports psychologist, how many times they do classroom etc. way more then any kid at BC will ever do.

Hokydad
12-17-2009, 04:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puck Swami
Major Junior players get 2-3 practices per week, because they are playing three or four games per week. College players get 5-6 practices a week, because they are only playing game twice a week. Simple math.

Weight room time and dedicated strength and conditioning coaching is also far better in the NCAA because there is more time for it.

And the vast majority of Major Junior players never get to the AHL to play against 22 year olds. Most of the them end up out of of hockey at age 19 or 20. A tiny handful will see more pro hockey, and some more will go to CIS hockey but the fact remains that only 20% of all MJ players will ever get a university degree, compared with 80% of NCAA players.

Major Junior is a good route for kids who can't handle college work and its a good route to the NHL not because it's a superior experience to the NCAA, but because more of those in NHL power chose that route themseleves.

A great player will get to the NHL no matter what route he chooses. But most players in both systems won't get there. So for the 90-95% who don't make it to the NHL, it seems to me that getting the degree is a better overall strategy.





Amen! Well said!!

And Yes, I agree that kids should go D 1 route.
Thats us, not the Canadians who could care less about coming to an American college. Just like our kids would be better of going to an engineering school in Bombay India, but we dont care...

Even the NHL GM's are saying to go that route... College is best choice but good luck telling that to a kid from Moose Jaw and his dad.

goldy_331
12-17-2009, 04:11 PM
Well the they should look in the mirror because they were the ones running it.

It might surprise you to learn that there are different views within the hockey community here and not all are held by those who "run it". One problem is always the parents' and kids' expectations. Game are fun for kids and parents, practices are too much like work. Even if many coaches and board members believe that fewer games and more practices would lead to better development, that doesn't mean they can make that happen. First they have to convince their "constituency" of it, then they can implement the change.

Hokydad
12-17-2009, 04:12 PM
As a Harvard fan, we have certainly lost some recent recruits to MJ (Zach Mitchell immediately comes to mind).

With that said, we also lost Jesse Lane back in the warly 90s to Major Junior a few weeks into his freshman season. At the time he was a fairly coveted recruit across the college hockey ranks.

Although Jesse did give up his ability to play college hockey, he was allowed to come back to Harvard and finish his degree (similar to what a Louis Leblanc will do if he leaves early as prdicted).

I know that the crux of this discussion focuses on the decision whether to attend college or MJ prior while still in high school, but I'm wondering (Kenny Ryan at BC comes to mind) if colleges can preclude the ability of a student to come back to get the degree if that student leaves for MJ as opposed to turning pro.

Thoughts?

Jesse lanes dad made about ten million+ a year at DLJ, he was more concerned with hockey then getting a job after it was over....

Hokydad
12-17-2009, 04:14 PM
I don't see much hope in anyone negotiating to stop the exodus from the US to MJ. The important thing here is what is the motive behind it? The NHL has always favored the Canada pipeline anyway because of the experience factor. Is it any wonder that the value of being a student/athlete has become secondary to focusing on hockey skills development alone and having a better chance at making the big cash in the NHL?

NHL favored it because 99% of the GM's were Canadian and walked the line....

You would be surprised at how many of the GM's with kids are now singing anew song.

Buffalo and Montreal's GM's both just recently said to stay in school.. Both diod so with atremendous amount of passion and intelligence. they have seen what Canadian juniors has done to so many kids

dggoddard
12-17-2009, 04:17 PM
Major junior kids season and camps etc are twice as long + as college hockey. I can asure you that a kid on the London knights is getting more quality practices per year then any kid on Boxton College. I was given the handout by the Hunter brothers that showed exactly how many times they lift, how many times they practice, how many times they see their sports psychologist, how many times they do classroom etc. way more then any kid at BC will ever do.American college kids have Captains practices and small gatherings with coaches that aren't considered "Official Practices." Many college players spend all summer working out together and working in clinics and the like. Quite a few players take summer school to catch up on courses or to get ahead and graduate early (Wheeler).

I seriously doubt that there is too much difference between NCAA & MJ players, except in the number of games played.

NCAA kids have an entire university at their disposal from Nutritionists, Strength Coaches, Trainers, Doctors, $20 million Weight Rooms, Facilities that are second to none, etc.

I'm not saying MJ or NCAA is "better," just that there are differences.

Dirty
12-17-2009, 04:18 PM
Major junior kids season and camps etc are twice as long + as college hockey.

So the major junior season is 14 months long?:p

bothman
12-17-2009, 04:20 PM
NHL favored it because 99% of the GM's were Canadian and walked the line....

You would be surprised at how many of the GM's with kids are now singing anew song.

Buffalo and Montreal's GM's both just recently said to stay in school.. Both diod so with atremendous amount of passion and intelligence. they have seen what Canadian juniors has done to so many kids

Maybe Bob McKenzie will weigh in...as someone fully vested in the ways of Canadien hockey and yet, someone who sent his son to Saint Lawrence. His perspective, as always, would be invaluable.

Hokydad
12-17-2009, 04:23 PM
Maybe Bob McKenzie will weigh in...as someone fully vested in the ways of Canadien hockey and yet, someone who sent his son to Saint Lawrence. His perspective, as always, would be invaluable.

Ed Olcyck(sic) and many others.

even Dave Hanson from Slap Shot fame saw the light.

the prpoblem is the canadian junior kids aprents who never played that sees the dream and cash in front of them

The mJ guys all say the same thing. "NHL by 22 through MJ's, 24 at best by college"

Hokydad
12-17-2009, 04:25 PM
So the major junior season is 14 months long?:p

BC's first game is 10/18, last game is 3/5. That is 5 months...

HarleyMC
12-17-2009, 04:30 PM
NHL favored it because 99% of the GM's were Canadian and walked the line....

You would be surprised at how many of the GM's with kids are now singing anew song.

Buffalo and Montreal's GM's both just recently said to stay in school.. Both diod so with atremendous amount of passion and intelligence. they have seen what Canadian juniors has done to so many kids

I think the NHL favors it because of the bias you mentioned and the experience factor vs. college hockey. Nevertheless the culture of hockey has changed in recent years and getting an education has become less important than $. There is very little that will stop this trend and an exodus of US players to MJ unless the NCAA changes some things. That will not happen anytime soon.

jnacc
12-17-2009, 04:33 PM
Major junior kids season and camps etc are twice as long + as college hockey. I can asure you that a kid on the London knights is getting more quality practices per year then any kid on Boxton College. I was given the handout by the Hunter brothers that showed exactly how many times they lift, how many times they practice, how many times they see their sports psychologist, how many times they do classroom etc. way more then any kid at BC will ever do.

Major Junior camps begin anywhere from the middle of August to the last week of August. All CHL players are on the ice practicing well before NCAA players even hit their respective schools. There is no question that over the course of the year CHL players not only play more games but receive more practice time as well.

I am not sure how many here are aware of the restrictive practices imposed by the NCAA on athletic coaches in terms of contact time with their players. Coaches have only so many hours allotted each week and that includes even phone conversations. No such restrictions apply in the CHL. Their coaching staffs can spend how much time they feel is neccessary in order to develop their players.


American college kids have Captains practices and small gatherings with coaches that aren't considered "Official Practices

Not nearly the same or beneficial as real practices with a fully trained coaching staff.

As you all know, I am a big proponent of making CHL players eligible as it would greatly expand the talent pool and help the majority of D-1 schools. I feel that the CHL would also gain because they would no longer have to devote an ever growing amount of money to their scholarship programs. That alone might make the CHL open to any sort of comprimise....but again the NCAA must be willing to give up ground, if not the CHL will simply show Kelly a continously expanding list of U.S. born players playing Major Junior and then show him the door.

HarleyMC
12-17-2009, 04:33 PM
So the major junior season is 14 months long?:p

I'm convinced Hokydad needs a translator.;)

Dirty
12-17-2009, 04:35 PM
BC's first game is 10/18, last game is 3/5. That is 5 months...

Unless Major Junior ends in July, it isn't twice the length of college though.

Hokydad
12-17-2009, 04:54 PM
Unless Major Junior ends in July, it isn't twice the length of college though.

True... It does though go deep into May.

THEY HAVE TWICE AS MANY PRACTICES AND GAMES AS ncaa.

USHL gets a better year of developin then NCAA, sad but true.

NCAA is actually working on a program to send kids back to USHL during season to build their development, then come back the following year to play

4four4
12-17-2009, 09:37 PM
They dont get twice the practice time and weight room time

Go look at the London Knoghts schedule and then tell us that.

They are playing vs older and stronger kids because they are in fact, older.

When they are 22 year old juniors or seniors, the major junior kids are playing against 22 year old ahl kids, who are slightly above the ncaa kids

NHL scouts have said the NCAA might be even a better league than the AHL.

Runninwiththedogs
12-17-2009, 09:56 PM
That's your evidence? I'm willing to bet more MN kids are playing Div I, getting drafted and currently signed to pro contracts than at any time in history.

And don't forget Woog went through a similar lull at the end of his tenure that Lucia is now trying to work through. I think the current state has far more to do with him and other circumstances (such as additional Div I colleges in the state) than anything related to the quality of players being produced in state.

I didn't know the quality of hockey in this state is dependent solely on the University of Minnesota-Twin Cities' head coach.

Dirty
12-17-2009, 09:57 PM
I didn't know the quality of hockey in this state is dependent solely on the coach of the University of Minnesota-Twin Cities' head coach.

You can't say you never learn anything here now, can you?