PDA

View Full Version : College Hockey amps up war on Canadian major junior....



Pages : 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14

Hokydad
12-17-2009, 10:49 AM
Most kids are coming from California, Michigan and NY. let em go

Lets get back to Mass and MN as the key states...

I would like to know how many of the 120+/- are able to get through clearinghouse? less then you might think

NCAA needs to extend the season and the number of games. At least 45 games

dggoddard
12-17-2009, 11:25 AM
Most kids are coming from California, Michigan and NY. let em go

Lets get back to Mass and MN as the key states...

I would like to know how many of the 120+/- are able to get through clearinghouse? less then you might think

NCAA needs to extend the season and the number of games. At least 45 gamesExtending the NCAA season is never going to happen. College hockey is already the longest season on the NCAA calender. If anything was going to happen the number of games would be reduced.

One has to question if the Gophers problems in recent season is related to a decline in the top end quality of Minnesota born players. Certainly less Minnesota and Mass. players are elite USHL or USNDT players than ever before.

How many families have the money to spend on producing an elite college level hockey player these days? Some have suggested that it can cost $200,000 in equipment, camps, rink fees, travel & tournaments for 12 years of youth hockey.

4four4
12-17-2009, 11:29 AM
Most kids are coming from California, Michigan and NY. let em go

Lets get back to Mass and MN as the key states...

I would like to know how many of the 120+/- are able to get through clearinghouse? less then you might think

NCAA needs to extend the season and the number of games. At least 45 games
20 years ago or so the NCAA hockey schools played more games they changed it to the current set up to have the students work on getting a degree. I highly doubt we will ever see 45 games a year you are asking for.

4four4
12-17-2009, 11:33 AM
Extending the NCAA season is never going to happen. College hockey is already the longest season on the NCAA calender. If anything was going to happen the number of games would be reduced.

One has to question if the Gophers problems in recent season is related to a decline in the top end quality of Minnesota born players. Certainly less Minnesota and Mass. players are elite USHL or USNDT players than ever before.

Minnesota players rarely play MJ and many of them decline to attend the USNDT. With the advent of the Minnesota Elite Fall league many players have decided to stay at home.

The fact of the matter is the state of Minnesota has produced more First round NHL draft picks then ever before.

Currently the Gophers have 15+ NHL picks on their squad if anything something else is going on in the hockey program. It is many things but the decline in the state of Minnesota producing players is not one of them.

dggoddard
12-17-2009, 11:42 AM
Minnesota players rarely play MJ and many of them decline to attend the USNDT. With the advent of the Minnesota Elite Fall league many players have decided to stay at home.

The fact of the matter is the state of Minnesota has produced more First round NHL draft picks then ever before.

Currently the Gophers have 15+ NHL picks on their squad if anything something else is going on in the hockey program. It is many things but the decline in the state of Minnesota producing players is not one of them.Only 6 of the 29 players at the USA Under 20 Camp are from Minnesota this week.

MN 6
MI 6
MA 3
NY 3
NJ 2
ILL 1
NV 1
OK 1
CA 1
MO 1
TX 1
WA 1
GA 1
OR 1

Compared to the 1980 USA Olympic Team (http://www.myuseless-info.com/usp1980usarost.html)

MN 12
MI 3
MA 4
WI 1

Hokydad
12-17-2009, 11:44 AM
Extending the NCAA season is never going to happen. College hockey is already the longest season on the NCAA calender. If anything was going to happen the number of games would be reduced.

One has to question if the Gophers problems in recent season is related to a decline in the top end quality of Minnesota born players. Certainly less Minnesota and Mass. players are elite USHL or USNDT players than ever before.

How many families have the money to spend on producing an elite college level hockey player these days? Some have suggested that it can cost $200,000 in equipment, camps, rink fees, travel & tournaments for 12 years of youth hockey.

The truth of the matter is that more Mass kids are playing in the USHL now then ever before, not the other way around.

Prep hockey is in decline and mass kids are going other routes.

Just this opast year alone the following kids left mass prep schools and or high school for USHL/juniors

Arnold, USNDP
Brickley, des Moines
Dubois, Cedar rapids
Bennett, cedar Rapids
Isles. US
Fitzgerald, Indiana
Coyle, Kings
Adams, Chicago
Gacec, Monarchs
Woods, Chicago
Racine, Waterloo
Eiserman, Monarchs


These are just 12 off the top of my head.

several more went juniors instead of a PG year in prep, where they might have ended up 5 years ago.

DaTruthinDaluth
12-17-2009, 11:47 AM
Well a couple of comments. We have a MJ team in our town here in Michigan and they just got a kid to switch over from one of the top US college programs. I guess he wasn't getting enough playing time there. So I would say from my observations that US colleges are not getting the talent they would like. Having said that.. MJ has always been able to get the best kids. Is MJ paying kids? Good chance in some form.
I am all for this marketing campaign though mostly because kids need to be able to have the proper information.
I would also disagree with swami. I think the vast majority of kids can do college work. Just look at football.

Or he's lazy in school and doesn't do his work... making him ineligible for the second semester... which is a character flaw that most professional teams won't want on their team anyway. If a kid is lazy in the classroom, he'll be lazy in the workplace... most Americans don't go North because they can get to the NHL... they go because they cant get into... or stay in school.

It is far better for a player to get his degree at 22 - 23 yrs old than play major juniors... flop around the minors for a few years then attempt to go to school and get a degree.... and not many take advantage of the MJ College money.... or if they do... probably don't graduate anyway. Bottom line, I don't care where you play... Canada or the US.... 95% or better will never make it to the NHL level... so the college route is a better way to play hockey and get their schooling in because that piece of paper they get when they graduate will be a whole lot more valuable than their hockey talents.... IN MOST CASES...

Slap Shot
12-17-2009, 11:56 AM
Only 6 of the 29 players at the USA Under 20 Camp are from Minnesota this week.

That's your evidence? I'm willing to bet more MN kids are playing Div I, getting drafted and currently signed to pro contracts than at any time in history.

And don't forget Woog went through a similar lull at the end of his tenure that Lucia is now trying to work through. I think the current state has far more to do with him and other circumstances (such as additional Div I colleges in the state) than anything related to the quality of players being produced in state.

4four4
12-17-2009, 12:05 PM
Only 6 of the 29 players at the USA Under 20 Camp are from Minnesota this week.

MN 6
MI 6
MA 3
NY 3
NJ 2
ILL 1
NV 1
OK 1
CA 1
MO 1
TX 1
WA 1
GA 1
OR 1

Compared to the 1980 USA Olympic Team (http://www.myuseless-info.com/usp1980usarost.html)

MN 12
MI 3
MA 4
WI 1

Only 6? That is still tied for the most. The game of hockey has changed and we will continue to see other non traditional hockey states have an elite player or two playing on the WJ team.

The fact of the matter is the state of Minnesota has the most Division 1 hockey players playing in the NCAA, the most NHL draft picks and players playing in pro hockey at all levels.

Puck Swami
12-17-2009, 12:14 PM
NCAA players don't need more games. More games doesn't always make you a better player, but more practice does. College kids already get twice the practice time and weight room time that MJ players get, and they play against older and stronger players. Smart NHL GMs know this, but the reality is that most NHL player development people came up through major junior, and they prefer that route because they know it better, they can control it better and they know the people in it better. It's human nature to stay with what you know.

Until more college-route GMs get hired by NHL teams, we wont see big change.

College hockey needs to do a better job selling its benefits.

Hokydad
12-17-2009, 02:00 PM
NCAA players don't need more games. More games doesn't always make you a better player, but more practice does. College kids already get twice the practice time and weight room time that MJ players get, and they play against older and stronger players. Smart NHL GMs know this, but the reality is that most NHL player development people came up through major junior, and they prefer that route because they know it better, they can control it better and they know the people in it better. It's human nature to stay with what you know.

Until more college-route GMs get hired by NHL teams, we wont see big change.

College hockey needs to do a better job selling its benefits.


They dont get twice the practice time and weight room time

Go look at the London Knoghts schedule and then tell us that.

They are playing vs older and stronger kids because they are in fact, older.

When they are 22 year old juniors or seniors, the major junior kids are playing against 22 year old ahl kids, who are slightly above the ncaa kids

goldy_331
12-17-2009, 02:05 PM
Extending the NCAA season is never going to happen. College hockey is already the longest season on the NCAA calender. If anything was going to happen the number of games would be reduced.

One has to question if the Gophers problems in recent season is related to a decline in the top end quality of Minnesota born players. Certainly less Minnesota and Mass. players are elite USHL or USNDT players than ever before.

How many families have the money to spend on producing an elite college level hockey player these days? Some have suggested that it can cost $200,000 in equipment, camps, rink fees, travel & tournaments for 12 years of youth hockey.

There are many smart hockey people involved in youth hockey in MN who feel this decline is due to too many games and not enough practices for the youth ranks. Lots of kids who play a lot of games year around, not many rink rats who skate outside and develop skills and moves anymore. Lots of good system players, not high end skill players.

FreddyFoyle
12-17-2009, 02:11 PM
Or he's lazy in school and doesn't do his work... making him ineligible for the second semester... which is a character flaw that most professional teams won't want on their team anyway. If a kid is lazy in the classroom, he'll be lazy in the workplace... most Americans don't go North because they can get to the NHL... they go because they cant get into... or stay in school.

It is far better for a player to get his degree at 22 - 23 yrs old than play major juniors... flop around the minors for a few years then attempt to go to school and get a degree.... and not many take advantage of the MJ College money.... or if they do... probably don't graduate anyway. Bottom line, I don't care where you play... Canada or the US.... 95% or better will never make it to the NHL level... so the college route is a better way to play hockey and get their schooling in because that piece of paper they get when they graduate will be a whole lot more valuable than their hockey talents.... IN MOST CASES...

So much negativity ...

Not all American players go the Major Junior route because they can't get into school. Luke Lynes, who is with UNB and won a CIS championship with them last season and now has a nice ring, turned down an NCAA scholarship (Bowling Green?) to go OHL, because he thought it was a better route to get drafted. While playing for Brampton he got drafted by his hometown Washington Capitals in the 4th round in 2006. Did he sign with them after junior? No, but he did achieve his dream of getting drafted. Would he have got drafted if he went NCAA? Who knows, but the important part is that he BELIEVED he had a better chance of getting drafted if he played Major Junior. Luke told me another big factor was that the NCAA team wanted him to spend time in the USHL, and he didn't like the team they recommended (? I'm not sure how that works, do USHL teams draft players?) whereas he could start off a higher level right away if he jumped to the OHL.

After trying the minor pros for a few months he now using his education package from junior to attend UNB and play for national championships. What is wrong with that?

UPEI has two Americans attending school and playing for them. Aaron Dawson from Peoria who played with Peterborough and Taylor Raszka from Petersburg, MI who played most of his OHL with Saginaw and then played minor pro. American student-athletes are scattered throughout the CIS, and all of them of course played Major Junior.

I see it discussed here a bit, but I think big factor is NCAA teams getting commitments from players, yet wanting them to spend time in the USHL, while some kids are anxious to get going on their career and don't want to wait in the USHL until their NCAA team is ready for them. Screw that, head off to Major junior.

As for the number of games, the three CIS conferences play 28 game schedules. Non-conference games are all considered exhibition games, and most teams only play a handful. Good teams play more - UNB has played 8 already and has two more plus a roadtrip to Maine after Christmas. Most CIS teams practice everyday except Sunday and game days, which is probably similar to the NCAA, so there is definitely more focus on development and preparation than junior.

Hokydad
12-17-2009, 02:15 PM
There are many smart hockey people involved in youth hockey in MN who feel this decline is due to too many games and not enough practices for the youth ranks. Lots of kids who play a lot of games year around, not many rink rats who skate outside and develop skills and moves anymore. Lots of good system players, not high end skill players.

Well the they should look in the mirror because they were the ones running it.

The ADM that USA hockey tried to put out was the single beiggest farce ever, second only to the US National dev program. They have put good old boys in charge of it who are political and have no idea how to teach kids. Roger Grillo from Brown is now a skills guru? Talk about systems>>>

Kids from 8-15 all over the country are not being taught sustems for one simple reason. They are being coached by dads, the vast majority of whom are good guys but clueless, wouldnt know a sysytem if it bit them in nose.


The other big problem is midgets, outside Michigan are a joke as well. MN has their elite league, mass is starting one up and is not far behind.

So many problems in USA hockey this board would blink like an XMAS tree if we ever disected tehm in detail

Terrierbyassociation
12-17-2009, 02:22 PM
So much negativity ...

Not all American players go the Major Junior route because they can't get into school. Luke Lynes, who is with UNB and won a CIS championship with them last season and now has a nice ring, turned down an NCAA scholarship (Bowling Green?) to go OHL, because he thought it was a better route to get drafted. While playing for Brampton he got drafted by his hometown Washington Capitals in the 4th round in 2006. Did he sign with them after junior? No, but he did achieve his dream of getting drafted. Would he have got drafted if he went NCAA? Who knows, but the important part is that he BELIEVED he had a better chance of getting drafted if he played Major Junior. After the minor pros for a few months he now using his education package from junior to attend UNB and play for national championships. What is wrong with that?

Kids regardless of nationality usually pick MJ because they think its their best path to making it to the pros. Luke Lynes is likely not going to make it.

MJ increases the likelihood of getting drafted but I doubt it increases your chances of truly making it in the NHL moreso than going to college. But we'll never know which one's better because the better players go to MJ compared to college and have a higher percentage make the NHL than the college kids. Until the level of players is close then we can't say for certain which one is better. For the most part, the CIS schools are behind most of the academic institutions in the USA. But then again, most of the top players even collegiately don't stay all four years.

Puck Swami
12-17-2009, 02:27 PM
They dont get twice the practice time and weight room time

Go look at the London Knoghts schedule and then tell us that.

They are playing vs older and stronger kids because they are in fact, older.

When they are 22 year old juniors or seniors, the major junior kids are playing against 22 year old ahl kids, who are slightly above the ncaa kids


Major Junior players get 2-3 practices per week, because they are playing three or four games per week. College players get 5-6 practices a week, because they are only playing game twice a week. Simple math.

Weight room time and dedicated strength and conditioning coaching is also far better in the NCAA because there is more time for it.

And the vast majority of Major Junior players never get to the AHL to play against 22 year olds. Most of the them end up out of of hockey at age 19 or 20. A tiny handful will see more pro hockey, and some more will go to CIS hockey but the fact remains that only 20% of all MJ players will ever get a university degree, compared with 80% of NCAA players.

Major Junior is a good route for kids who can't handle college work and its a good route to the NHL not because it's a superior experience to the NCAA, but because more of those in NHL power chose that route themseleves.

A great player will get to the NHL no matter what route he chooses. But most players in both systems won't get there. So for the 90-95% who don't make it to the NHL, it seems to me that getting the degree is a better overall strategy.

Slap Shot
12-17-2009, 02:41 PM
There are many smart hockey people involved in youth hockey in MN who feel this decline is due to too many games and not enough practices for the youth ranks. Lots of kids who play a lot of games year around, not many rink rats who skate outside and develop skills and moves anymore. Lots of good system players, not high end skill players.

This was very much the case for several years, but I can name 3 very prominent youth systems in the TC that took specific measures to place more of an emphasis on practice and training and less on playing games without blinking an eye. My guess (or hope at least) is this trend has probably spread to many others.

FreddyFoyle
12-17-2009, 02:54 PM
For the most part, the CIS schools are behind most of the academic institutions in the USA.

And you know that because ...?

All CIS hockey-playing schools are public, provincially funded universities - state schools in American parlance.

The reputable QS World University Ratings for 2009 http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2009/results(and this is an academic rating ...) does have Harvard 1st, Yale 3rd and Princeton 8th, but their next D1 hockey school is Cornell at 15th. Go down a little further, there is CIS's McGill at 18 ahead of Michigan at 19. The next hockey school is the CIS's Toronto at 29th, followed by Brown at 31. Next hockey school? The CIS's UBC at 40th. Then BU at 54 and the CIS's Alberta at 59.

So where does your blanket statement come from?

CCtig
12-17-2009, 03:06 PM
Major Junior players get 2-3 practices per week, because they are playing three or four games per week. College players get 5-6 practices a week, because they are only playing game twice a week. Simple math.

Weight room time and dedicated strength and conditioning coaching is also far better in the NCAA because there is more time for it.

And the vast majority of Major Junior players never get to the AHL to play against 22 year olds. Most of the them end up out of of hockey at age 19 or 20. A tiny handful will see more pro hockey, and some more will go to CIS hockey but the fact remains that only 20% of all MJ players will ever get a university degree, compared with 80% of NCAA players.

Major Junior is a good route for kids who can't handle college work and its a good route to the NHL not because it's a superior experience to the NCAA, but because more of those in NHL power chose that route themseleves.

A great player will get to the NHL no matter what route he chooses. But most players in both systems won't get there. So for the 90-95% who don't make it to the NHL, it seems to me that getting the degree is a better overall strategy.

Amen! Well said!!

Puck Swami
12-17-2009, 03:08 PM
For the most part, the CIS schools are behind most of the academic institutions in the USA.


If you are a Canadian kid who wants to work in Canada, a Canadian degree is a more well recognized option in most cases. Harvard and Yale are great degrees in both countries, but a kid who wants to work in Toronto after hockey is probably better off going to the University of Toronto than he is going to BU or Wisconsin. Of course, if the Canadian kid wants to work in the USA, an American degree is a better option.