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  • Re: Minnesota Golden Gophers 2009-2010 the last year of the old WCHA

    Originally posted by ScoobyDoo View Post
    This is hilarity at its finest. Keep it coming.
    I'm not of the group that believes that the UMN defense is horrible, but his statement is true IMO. UW has a proven defense, and one that is probably one of the best in the nation. The UMN defense still has to prove themselves this year after suffering a bit last season.
    I like chocolate milk and Kate Beckinsale and Lauren Graham and Brooke Burke and Elisha Cuthbert and Eva Longoria.

    Fighting Sioux Hockey

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    • Re: Minnesota Golden Gophers 2009-2010 the last year of the old WCHA

      Originally posted by sfo19 View Post
      You gave me a chuckle! Minny and Wisco dead even on defense? HA! I'm sorry but Minny's defense was terrible last season and until proven otherwise this season, Wisco is far superior on defense. Offense you may have an edge...
      Originally posted by willythekid View Post
      The goofers defense is a joke but why would you find that funny?
      It’s well known that the Gopher defense will need to make adjustments from last year. The leadership, talent and maturity is stronger this season. Along with Helgeson and Leddy, the quality and composition of the defense is significantly different from last year. There’s no question it will be improved.

      Wisconsin in losing McBain will need to make a huge adjustment. Losing McBain’s on-ice leadership and 34% of his scoring on defense is significant and ominous. He played a major role in Wisconsin being ranked third in scoring in the WCHA last season. Smith and Gardiner are very good defenseman but have a significant task ahead to fill that void.

      There’s often a disparity between what’s on paper and future reality, but since you kept referring to last year let’s look at it. Based on last year’s numbers alone, the Gophers actually have more defensive scoring returning than Wisconsin.

      Aaron Ness’s freshman season was better than the freshman season’s of 75% of Wisconsin’s top returning defensivemen and he will most likely improve on that. Cade Fairchild doubled his offensive output from the previous season, led the defense last year in scoring and is regarded by many as a possible Hobey candidate. He actually had a better sophomore season than Jordan Leopold or Jamie McBain did. No returning defenseman on Wisconsin has those numbers and widely recognized talent.

      Add to that, Nick Leddy, Mr. Hockey, highest drafted college player in the 2009 NHL draft whom coaches and the media believe is a possible candidate for WCHA rookie of the year, and Helgeson's grit and the Gopher defense on paper looks even stronger than Bucky. It’s still early so I’m calling it “dead even” just to be nice.

      Originally posted by brianvf View Post

      Agreed, although this is ironic coming from a Gopher fan.
      An ironically rare agreeable moment. Getting more agreeable with age, huh?

      Comment


      • Re: Minnesota Golden Gophers 2009-2010 the last year of the old WCHA

        Originally posted by sfo19 View Post
        I think Minny has a lot more question marks considering their mid-season collapse last year and how they will respond to that this year. Just my thoughts...
        Minnesota could return every player from a FF team and you'd still question their upcoming season. I didn't think it was possible, but you are actually worse than Goon when it comes to rating them. But thanks.

        Given what the Gophers lost vs return and what they add, I don't think it's a stretch to believe the defense will be improved. If the offense doesn't regress, these improvements added to a more veteran team should provide higher expectations for the team.
        Last edited by Slap Shot; 09-30-2009, 04:58 AM.

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        • Re: Minnesota Golden Gophers 2009-2010 the last year of the old WCHA

          Originally posted by HarleyMC View Post
          Cade Fairchild doubled his offensive output from the previous season, led the defense last year in scoring and is regarded by many as a possible Hobey candidate. He actually had a better sophomore season than Jordan Leopold or Jamie McBain did.
          I'll assume you are just talking about offensive numbers. Because defensively last season, Fairchild left a lot to be desired, IMO. If we see another good increase in point production, and a marked improvement in his defensive play, then yes, a possible Hobey consideration could be discussed. As of now, any discussion along those lines is quite a stretch.

          Comment


          • Re: Minnesota Golden Gophers 2009-2010 the last year of the old WCHA

            Originally posted by johnnypohlfan View Post
            I'll assume you are just talking about offensive numbers. Because defensively last season, Fairchild left a lot to be desired, IMO. If we see another good increase in point production, and a marked improvement in his defensive play, then yes, a possible Hobey consideration could be discussed. As of now, any discussion along those lines is quite a stretch.
            I was referring to offensive performance. There were obviously some definite defensive lapses last season not just with Fairchild but with the whole crew. It should be interesting to see how they readjust and with Helgeson's style, how he adds to the mix. I'm feeling a lot more confident with this group than last year. I think you're right, if Fairchild can put up very good numbers and play better defense, he could be under consideration as a Hobey candidate.

            INCH's 2010 Hobey Picks
            Last edited by HarleyMC; 09-30-2009, 09:25 AM.

            Comment


            • Re: Minnesota Golden Gophers 2009-2010 the last year of the old WCHA

              Originally posted by HarleyMC View Post
              It’s well known that the Gopher defense will need to make adjustments from last year. The leadership, talent and maturity is stronger this season. Along with Helgeson and Leddy, the quality and composition of the defense is significantly different from last year. There’s no question it will be improved.

              Wisconsin in losing McBain will need to make a huge adjustment. Losing McBain’s on-ice leadership and 34% of his scoring on defense is significant and ominous. He played a major role in Wisconsin being ranked third in scoring in the WCHA last season. Smith and Gardiner are very good defenseman but have a significant task ahead to fill that void.

              There’s often a disparity between what’s on paper and future reality, but since you kept referring to last year let’s look at it. Based on last year’s numbers alone, the Gophers actually have more defensive scoring returning than Wisconsin.

              Aaron Ness’s freshman season was better than the freshman season’s of 75% of Wisconsin’s top returning defensivemen and he will most likely improve on that. Cade Fairchild doubled his offensive output from the previous season, led the defense last year in scoring and is regarded by many as a possible Hobey candidate. He actually had a better sophomore season than Jordan Leopold or Jamie McBain did. No returning defenseman on Wisconsin has those numbers and widely recognized talent.

              Add to that, Nick Leddy, Mr. Hockey, highest drafted college player in the 2009 NHL draft whom coaches and the media believe is a possible candidate for WCHA rookie of the year, and Helgeson's grit and the Gopher defense on paper looks even stronger than Bucky. It’s still early so I’m calling it “dead even” just to be nice.
              Ok, you may know some things about Gopher hockey, but you obviously don't know what's going on in Badgerland these days. This pains me to say, 'cause I hate the Badgers a great deal, but Wisconsin is bringing a defense FOR THE AGES this year. Minnesota's got a good defense, but when he said UW had a significantly better one, it wasn't an insult to Gopherdom. And losing McBain is going to hurt UW's points scored, but going to help them keep the puck out of their net. McBain may have been an offensive weapon, but was a HUGE liability in their own zone.

              And why are Brendan Smith and Jake Gardiner talented, yet they have something to prove, whereas Ness and Fairchild are for sure going to improve, and Leddy and Hegelson it sounds like will just jump in as freshmen and have no issues?

              All you keep doing is throwing out offensive numbers. Hockey's about a lot more than scoring points, ESPECIALLY on the blueline. McDonough, Smith, Goloubef, Gardiner, Schultz, Little, Springer, Ramage, P. Johnson. Nobody in the WCHA, and probably all of college hockey, has a blueline with that much talent and depth. MN is not "dead even" with UW on defense coming into the season, and the realistic Gopher posters, even the ones who can't stand the Badgers or myself, would agree with me there.

              Originally posted by Slap Shot View Post
              Minnesota could return every player from a FF team and you'd still question their upcoming season.
              Totally agree. And when sfo makes a ridiculous statement, feel free to attack it. But when he said that UW's defense will be better than MN's, at least going into the season, that looks like a pretty safe bet.

              Comparing the two teams for the 2009/2010 season:
              Goaltending: substantial edge Gophers
              Offense: slight edge Gophers
              Defense: big edge Badgers
              tUMD is Jan Brady per Brenthoven. Whew.... thanks for clearing THAT up.

              Best USCHO quotes to date:

              "UND/DU will realize that their party sucks, because the easterners only want to drink Zima." - BPH

              "It is too bad that aaron marvin was a senior so he can't go after the rest of the sioux". - bigblue_dl

              "I would rather play the blackhawks than you right now." - dogs2012

              Comment


              • Re: Minnesota Golden Gophers 2009-2010 the last year of the old WCHA

                Originally posted by SCSU Euro View Post
                Ok, you may know some things about Gopher hockey, but you obviously don't know what's going on in Badgerland these days. This pains me to say, 'cause I hate the Badgers a great deal, but Wisconsin is bringing a defense FOR THE AGES this year. Minnesota's got a good defense, but when he said UW had a significantly better one, it wasn't an insult to Gopherdom. And losing McBain is going to hurt UW's points scored, but going to help them keep the puck out of their net. McBain may have been an offensive weapon, but was a HUGE liability in their own zone.

                And why are Brendan Smith and Jake Gardiner talented, yet they have something to prove, whereas Ness and Fairchild are for sure going to improve, and Leddy and Hegelson it sounds like will just jump in as freshmen and have no issues?

                All you keep doing is throwing out offensive numbers. Hockey's about a lot more than scoring points, ESPECIALLY on the blueline. McDonough, Smith, Goloubef, Gardiner, Schultz, Little, Springer, Ramage, P. Johnson. Nobody in the WCHA, and probably all of college hockey, has a blueline with that much talent and depth. MN is not "dead even" with UW on defense coming into the season, and the realistic Gopher posters, even the ones who can't stand the Badgers or myself, would agree with me there.



                Totally agree. And when sfo makes a ridiculous statement, feel free to attack it. But when he said that UW's defense will be better than MN's, at least going into the season, that looks like a pretty safe bet.

                Comparing the two teams for the 2009/2010 season:
                Goaltending: substantial edge Gophers
                Offense: slight edge Gophers
                Defense: big edge Badgers
                Harley at least provided stats in his argument. All you provided were platitudes.
                **NOTE: The misleading post above was brought to you by Reynold's Wrap and American Steeples, makers of Crosses.

                Originally Posted by dropthatpuck-Scooby's a lost cause.
                Originally Posted by First Time, Long Time-Always knew you were nothing but a troll.

                Comment


                • Re: Minnesota Golden Gophers 2009-2010 the last year of the old WCHA

                  Originally posted by ScoobyDoo View Post
                  Harley at least provided stats in his argument. All you provided were platitudes.
                  Harley did? He cited two statistics. The first was that Aaron Ness was better than 75% of Wisconsin's defensemen. The second was "losing McBain's on-ice leadership and 34% of his scoring on defense" is a huge blow. I don't even know what that second one means. They lost 100% of McBain's scoring. He didn't have anywhere close to 34% of the team's scoring, was 31% of the scoring of defensemen, and 23% of the goal scoring of defensemen.

                  Both posts lacked any sort of statistical basis in fact, and both were just opinions.
                  That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

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                  • Re: Minnesota Golden Gophers 2009-2010 the last year of the old WCHA

                    I am roughly 73% sure that no one knows jack yet, but am 98% sure that >75% won't admit it.
                    the state of hockey is good

                    Comment


                    • Re: Minnesota Golden Gophers 2009-2010 the last year of the old WCHA

                      Originally posted by state of hockey View Post
                      I am roughly 73% sure that no one knows jack yet, but am 98% sure that >75% won't admit it.
                      I'll admit that I know 1+1=2. And that's about it.
                      **NOTE: The misleading post above was brought to you by Reynold's Wrap and American Steeples, makers of Crosses.

                      Originally Posted by dropthatpuck-Scooby's a lost cause.
                      Originally Posted by First Time, Long Time-Always knew you were nothing but a troll.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Minnesota Golden Gophers 2009-2010 the last year of the old WCHA

                        Originally posted by ScoobyDoo View Post
                        Harley at least provided stats in his argument. All you provided were platitudes.
                        True... but I was pointing out that Harley is really just fixated on offensive numbers, and I said that its hard to quantify how good defensive players are in their own end by numbers. What do you wanna go by? +/-, your team's GAA, or SOG given up... they're all flawed. And I never said I didn't have anything more than an opinion.

                        Oh... and you know how I know I said some things that you guys agree with, or at least can't argue? I posted something on the Gophers season thread saying the Badgers were better in an aspect of the game 2 hours ago... and nobody came on here to tell me how wrong I am.
                        tUMD is Jan Brady per Brenthoven. Whew.... thanks for clearing THAT up.

                        Best USCHO quotes to date:

                        "UND/DU will realize that their party sucks, because the easterners only want to drink Zima." - BPH

                        "It is too bad that aaron marvin was a senior so he can't go after the rest of the sioux". - bigblue_dl

                        "I would rather play the blackhawks than you right now." - dogs2012

                        Comment


                        • Re: Minnesota Golden Gophers 2009-2010 the last year of the old WCHA

                          Originally posted by SCSU Euro View Post
                          True... but I was pointing out that Harley is really just fixated on offensive numbers, and I said that its hard to quantify how good defensive players are in their own end by numbers. What do you wanna go by? +/-, your team's GAA, or SOG given up... they're all flawed. And I never said I didn't have anything more than an opinion.

                          Oh... and you know how I know I said some things that you guys agree with, or at least can't argue? I posted something on the Gophers season thread saying the Badgers were better in an aspect of the game 2 hours ago... and nobody came on here to tell me how wrong I am.
                          Can't be sure. We all know around here that Wisconsin has been kiping a lot of the top defensemen talent for a while now. Both scoring and defender types. At least those that have finally made the team or haven't rescinded the offer.

                          Still, defense is hard to quantify, like you said, and conventional wisdom is all about Kangas getting hung out to dry last year. If it continues this year it may be a long season. Somehow I don't think it will.
                          **NOTE: The misleading post above was brought to you by Reynold's Wrap and American Steeples, makers of Crosses.

                          Originally Posted by dropthatpuck-Scooby's a lost cause.
                          Originally Posted by First Time, Long Time-Always knew you were nothing but a troll.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Minnesota Golden Gophers 2009-2010 the last year of the old WCHA

                            Originally posted by SJHovey View Post
                            Harley did? He cited two statistics. The first was that Aaron Ness was better than 75% of Wisconsin's defensemen. The second was "losing McBain's on-ice leadership and 34% of his scoring on defense" is a huge blow. I don't even know what that second one means. They lost 100% of McBain's scoring. He didn't have anywhere close to 34% of the team's scoring, was 31% of the scoring of defensemen, and 23% of the goal scoring of defensemen.

                            Both posts lacked any sort of statistical basis in fact, and both were just opinions.
                            Ah no, but I'll spell it out for you. You misquoted me in your first statement. I wrote that Aaron Ness had a better FRESHMAN season than FRESHMAN SEASONS of 75% of Wisconsin's TOP RETURNING defensemen (I'm assuming these are McDonough, Smith, Goloubef, Gardiner).

                            I may have not been as clear with the McBain stat (total points). I only looked at defensemen that had significant ice time last season: McBain, McDonough, Smith, Goloubef, Gardiner. The others: Springer, Little and Johnson averaged only approximately 20G (half a season) with a total of 8 pts. Including only the top defensemen from last year, McBain's contribution in points among the top defensemen was 34%. If you want to include the others and the 8 points it's 31%, an insignificant difference.

                            I think there's plenty of "statistical basis in fact" there to chew on. As I intimated at the end of my post (which it appears you hardly read), of course there's a degree of opinion and speculation at this stage. It's "early" and yet "on paper" the Gophers have more proven scoring from returning defensemen based on last year's stat's than Wisconsin's TOP returning defensemen. In terms of talent, at the very least "dead even". We can break that down too if you like.

                            Originally posted by SCSU Euro View Post
                            True... but I was pointing out that Harley is really just fixated on offensive numbers, and I said that its hard to quantify how good defensive players are in their own end by numbers. What do you wanna go by? +/-, your team's GAA, or SOG given up... they're all flawed. And I never said I didn't have anything more than an opinion.

                            Oh... and you know how I know I said some things that you guys agree with, or at least can't argue? I posted something on the Gophers season thread saying the Badgers were better in an aspect of the game 2 hours ago... and nobody came on here to tell me how wrong I am.
                            Ok I'll go slow. It's fascinating to see guys like you come on here with an axe to grind and inaccurately read the post your trying to refute. I wrote, "There’s often a disparity between what’s on paper and future reality" and "on paper" the Gopher returning defense is offensively better than Wisconsin's TOP returning defensemen.

                            So I'm fully aware that there are areas of the defensive game that are best judged by observation and are not quantifiably measurable (breakouts, clearing the net, etc.). So your presumption that I'm "fixated" on numbers is simply based on the "fact" that you didn't read my post thoroughly enough. However, banter without fact is just banal redundancy.

                            So stats are "all flawed"? Which ones? All of them or just the ones you don't use? Can you prove and operationalize your statement, "Wisconsin is bringing a defense FOR THE AGES this year" without them? Enlighten us, but don't use any stats to prove it.
                            Last edited by HarleyMC; 09-30-2009, 05:07 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Re: Minnesota Golden Gophers 2009-2010 the last year of the old WCHA

                              Originally posted by SCSU Euro View Post
                              Totally agree. And when sfo makes a ridiculous statement, feel free to attack it. But when he said that UW's defense will be better than MN's, at least going into the season, that looks like a pretty safe bet.
                              Yes and yes.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Minnesota Golden Gophers 2009-2010 the last year of the old WCHA

                                Originally posted by HarleyMC View Post
                                Ok I'll go slow. It's fascinating to see guys like you come on here with an axe to grind and inaccurately read the post your trying to refute. I wrote, "There’s often a disparity between what’s on paper and future reality" and "on paper" the Gopher returning defense is offensively better than Wisconsin's TOP returning defensemen.

                                So I'm fully aware that there are areas of the defensive game that are best judged by observation and are not quantifiably measurable (breakouts, clearing the net, etc.). So your presumption that I'm "fixated" on numbers is simply based on the "fact" that you didn't read my post thoroughly enough. However, banter without fact is just banal redundancy.

                                So stats are "all flawed"? Which ones? All of them or just the ones you don't use? Can you prove and operationalize your statement, "Wisconsin is bringing a defense FOR THE AGES this year" without them? Enlighten us, but don't use any stats to prove it.
                                All I heard was, "Blah, blah, blah... I'm a dirty whore."

                                If you wanna stick your fingers in your ears and not listen to anything anyone has to say that doesn't put your Gophers in good light (and so far, nobody's even attacking the Gophers, just saying the Badgers' D will be better), fine, then go back in your cave.
                                tUMD is Jan Brady per Brenthoven. Whew.... thanks for clearing THAT up.

                                Best USCHO quotes to date:

                                "UND/DU will realize that their party sucks, because the easterners only want to drink Zima." - BPH

                                "It is too bad that aaron marvin was a senior so he can't go after the rest of the sioux". - bigblue_dl

                                "I would rather play the blackhawks than you right now." - dogs2012

                                Comment

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