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Scarlet
04-19-2017, 03:32 PM
I feel there needs to be clarification on the whole campus site issues:

1. Allow campus locations to be regional sites.
- appears that the best mid size arenas in the Midwest/west are actual campus sites
- how to handle host school - place there if seeded, regardless, or just if they're a #1 seed?

2. Have schools seeded 1-8 host a series on campus (this is what used to happen)
- would need an additional week to go from eight to four

What would be the preference here?

Split-N
04-19-2017, 04:51 PM
eh, just play the tournament every year in tampa, similar to omaha with the college world series in baseball. ideally located, especially for the alaska schools :d no more eastern bias, everyone will know where they're headed every year.

fyp

Slap Shot
04-19-2017, 05:21 PM
This might be a dumb question/suggestion, but why not remove schools as eligible hosts in the bidding process altogether and instead limit it to the venues themselves and/or promoters? Not enough money to be made already to garner more attention than is currently generated?

Shirtless Guy
04-19-2017, 10:14 PM
There are plenty of neutral sites in the Midwest/west it's just that most of them are not within a couple hours of enough teams like our east. I made a list in the frozen four thread but I can post here too.

Shirtless Guy
04-19-2017, 10:22 PM
Here is my breakdown of neutral venues:
CO: Denver, Loveland
ND: Fargo
SD: Sioux Falls, Rapid City
NE: Omaha, <strike>Ralston</strike>, Lincoln, <strike>Kearney</strike>
MN: St Paul, <strike>Theif River Falls</strike>, Minneapolis
IA: Sioux City, <strike>Waterloo</strike>, Des Moines, <strike>Urbandale</strike>, <strike>Dubuque</strike>, <strike>Cedar Rapids</strike>
WI: Madison, Green Bay, Milwaukee, Milwaukee
MO: St Louis, Independence, Kansas City
IL: Moline, Rockford, Rosemont, Bloomington, Chicago
MI: Kalamazoo, Muskegon, Grand Rapids, <strike>Plymouth</strike>, Saginaw, <strike>Flint</strike>, Detroit
OH: Cleveland, Cincinnati, Toledo, Columbus, Youngstown
IN: Indianapolis, Fort Wayne
PA (Apparently): <strike>Johnstown</strike>, Reading, Allentown, Hershey, Wilke-Barre, Erie, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia
WV: Wheeling

Notes:
Strike through - too small
underlined - too big

FloridaCat
04-19-2017, 11:22 PM
Here is my breakdown of neutral venues:
CO: Denver, Loveland
ND: Fargo
SD: Sioux Falls, Rapid City
NE: Omaha, <strike>Ralston</strike>, Lincoln, <strike>Kearney</strike>
MN: St Paul, <strike>Theif River Falls</strike>, Minneapolis
IA: Sioux City, <strike>Waterloo</strike>, Des Moines, <strike>Urbandale</strike>, <strike>Dubuque</strike>, <strike>Cedar Rapids</strike>
WI: Madison, Green Bay, Milwaukee, Milwaukee
MO: St Louis, Independence, Kansas City
IL: Moline, Rockford, Rosemont, Bloomington, Chicago
MI: Kalamazoo, Muskegon, Grand Rapids, <strike>Plymouth</strike>, Saginaw, <strike>Flint</strike>, Detroit
OH: Cleveland, Cincinnati, Toledo, Columbus, Youngstown
IN: Indianapolis, Fort Wayne
PA (Apparently): <strike>Johnstown</strike>, Reading, Allentown, Hershey, Wilke-Barre, Erie, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia
WV: Wheeling

Notes:
Strike through - too small
underlined - too big

2 potential sites in Indianapolis. Bankers Life Fieldhouse, downtown, @ 14,000 seats. Indiana Farmers Coliseum, State Fair Grounds, @ 6300 seats.

pgb-ohio
04-20-2017, 07:07 AM
This might be a dumb question/suggestion, but why not remove schools as eligible hosts in the bidding process altogether and instead limit it to the venues themselves and/or promoters? Not enough money to be made already to garner more attention than is currently generated?It's not a dumb question, but I don't think this line of inquiry leads to any sort of solution. Coaches, players and fans don't care who drafts the bids or who counts the gate receipts. Someone might object to the presence of the "home" PA Announcer, but that's about it. The dilemma is still going to be the same. Due to the geography of the West, good attendance numbers usually require a partisan crowd -- no matter who's serving as the maître de.

Suppose you did cut the schools out of the bidding process and the support roles. At present, most of those functions are being performed by people on university salaries. Push those costs on the venues/promoters, and bidding becomes even less attractive.

Russell Jaslow
04-20-2017, 07:59 AM
Someone might object to the presence of the "home" PA Announcer, but that's about it.

For a NCAA playoff game, the PA announcer must by neutral. That includes his voice level, excitement, and inflection. The NCAA insists on this, and will instruct the announcer, especially if they are usually related to a particular school or are the home announcer (like in D3).

For an example of what kind happen if you don't follow these rules, see Middlebury announcer the last time that school hosted the D3 national championship.

Happy
04-20-2017, 12:50 PM
For a NCAA playoff game, the PA announcer must by neutral. That includes his voice level, excitement, and inflection. The NCAA insists on this, and will instruct the announcer, especially if they are usually related to a particular school or are the home announcer (like in D3).

For an example of what kind happen if you don't follow these rules, see Middlebury announcer the last time that school hosted the D3 national championship.

Well, help us out.

http://athletics.middlebury.edu/general/2014-15/releases/sears_release

Russell Jaslow
04-20-2017, 12:53 PM
Well, help us out.

http://athletics.middlebury.edu/general/2014-15/releases/sears_release

It wasn't him. It was someone else. Maybe it was at Norwich...

I know it was when Middlebury played Norwich. I'm trying to remember which location it was at. But, I'm leaning towards Norwich now.

pgb-ohio
04-20-2017, 04:12 PM
For a NCAA playoff game, the PA announcer must by neutral. That includes his voice level, excitement, and inflection. The NCAA insists on this, and will instruct the announcer, especially if they are usually related to a particular school or are the home announcer (like in D3).That's my understanding as well. But this doesn't conflict with the point I was trying to make.

Even if a PA Announcer delivers a fully neutral performance, some will perceive bias because of the announcer' regular season affiliation. Or, on isolated occasions, an announcer may actually fail to live up to his obligation of neutrality. Either scenario may cause pushback.

But I offered this example as "the exception that proves the rule." Generally speaking, support staff at tournaments don't draw objections simply because they usually work at one of the member schools. In other words, excluding the schools from administrative roles at the tournaments wouldn't make them more neutral. Less viable, yes. More neutral, no.

The Sicatoka
04-20-2017, 04:50 PM
If you've ever driven on that road you would know that it would be quicker to drive from Allentown to Fargo in the time it takes to go from Hartford to NYC. Or Bridgeport to NYC. :)

Remember, there's someone with a master's from Rensselaer in this conversation between you and me, and looking at my wall, it's not you. :)
And apparently you've never drive the PA turnpike or through Chicago. ;)

CLS
04-20-2017, 09:16 PM
It's not a dumb question, but I don't think this line of inquiry leads to any sort of solution. Coaches, players and fans don't care who drafts the bids or who counts the gate receipts. Someone might object to the presence of the "home" PA Announcer, but that's about it. The dilemma is still going to be the same. Due to the geography of the West, good attendance numbers usually require a partisan crowd -- no matter who's serving as the maître de.

<b>Suppose you did cut the schools out of the bidding process and the support roles. At present, most of those functions are being performed by people on university salaries. Push those costs on the venues/promoters, and bidding becomes even less attractive.</b>.
Not meaning to argue with you pgb (done enough of that in the past ;)), but are you sure of the bolded statement? Or maybe tell us exactly what the host (school) does that's really expensive for the host (venue)? I have to believe that, for example, the Worcester bid itself is pretty much the same from year to year, and they’re staffed to accommodate events larger than an NCAA regional. And there’ve been many examples posted above of schools that are nowhere close to FF venues “hosting”, so evidently hosting doesn’t require close proximity.

It does seem to me that getting rid of the school host could accomplish some good by removing the current requirement that if a host school makes the tournament, they have to be sent to the region they host. For example, this year, the NCAA could have sent Providence College to some other regional if they thought it was unfair to Harvard to have to play a lower seeded Providence College in Providence. Or, in the Fargo/Sioux Falls example, if UND made the tournament as a fourth seed, the NCAA could send UND to another regional. Of course if they’re really concerned with attendance, they might choose not to do this, but at least it gives them a choice.


Here is my breakdown of neutral venues:
CO: Denver, Loveland
ND: Fargo
SD: Sioux Falls, Rapid City
NE: Omaha, <strike>Ralston</strike>, Lincoln, <strike>Kearney</strike>
MN: St Paul, <strike>Theif River Falls</strike>, Minneapolis
IA: Sioux City, <strike>Waterloo</strike>, Des Moines, <strike>Urbandale</strike>, <strike>Dubuque</strike>, <strike>Cedar Rapids</strike>
WI: Madison, Green Bay, Milwaukee, Milwaukee
MO: St Louis, Independence, Kansas City
IL: Moline, Rockford, Rosemont, Bloomington, Chicago
MI: Kalamazoo, Muskegon, Grand Rapids, <strike>Plymouth</strike>, Saginaw, <strike>Flint</strike>, Detroit
OH: Cleveland, Cincinnati, Toledo, Columbus, Youngstown
IN: Indianapolis, Fort Wayne
PA (Apparently): <strike>Johnstown</strike>, Reading, Allentown, Hershey, Wilke-Barre, Erie, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia
WV: Wheeling

Notes:
Strike through - too small
underlined - too big
I was going to respond in the other thread, but I’ll respond here. I assume by “too small” you mean that they don’t satisfy the current 5,000 capacity requirement. I don’t understand why this requirement exists (at least in the west). Why have a 5,000 capacity requirement, if you never draw anywhere near to 5,000 fans? Now many smaller venues may fail because of “amenities” requirements or lack of convenient hotels, but it seems to me the 5,000 capacity doesn’t make sense in the west.

Shirtless Guy
04-20-2017, 09:26 PM
I was going to respond in the other thread, but I’ll respond here. I assume by “too small” you mean that they don’t satisfy the current 5,000 capacity requirement. I don’t understand why this requirement exists (at least in the west). Why have a 5,000 capacity requirement, if you never draw anywhere near to 5,000 fans? Now many smaller venues may fail because of “amenities” requirements or lack of convenient hotels, but it seems to me the 5,000 capacity doesn’t make sense in the west.yes, it's bc they're below the 5k. The reason is bc the NCAA has not chosen to differentiate between east and west. That is part of the broken system.

purpleinnebraska
04-21-2017, 09:07 AM
Here is my breakdown of neutral venues:
CO: Denver, Loveland
ND: Fargo
SD: Sioux Falls, Rapid City
NE: Omaha, <strike>Ralston</strike>, Lincoln, <strike>Kearney</strike>
MN: St Paul, <strike>Theif River Falls</strike>, Minneapolis
IA: Sioux City, <strike>Waterloo</strike>, Des Moines, <strike>Urbandale</strike>, <strike>Dubuque</strike>, <strike>Cedar Rapids</strike>
WI: Madison, Green Bay, Milwaukee, Milwaukee
MO: St Louis, Independence, Kansas City
IL: Moline, Rockford, Rosemont, Bloomington, Chicago
MI: Kalamazoo, Muskegon, Grand Rapids, <strike>Plymouth</strike>, Saginaw, <strike>Flint</strike>, Detroit
OH: Cleveland, Cincinnati, Toledo, Columbus, Youngstown
IN: Indianapolis, Fort Wayne
PA (Apparently): <strike>Johnstown</strike>, Reading, Allentown, Hershey, Wilke-Barre, Erie, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia
WV: Wheeling

Notes:
Strike through - too small
underlined - too big

On the one hand, I'd relish the 3 mile drive to the Tyson Event Center in Sioux City to watch some NCAA action. On the other hand, I'd be pretty lonely once I got there. I like your outside the box thinking in including USHL and ECHL venues like Sioux City. Bloomington, Rapid City, Loveland, etc., but I question how much college hockey interest there is in those places. In some rare instances (like with UMD having 5 former Sioux City Musketeers on their roster this year), you might be able to strike gold in one of these places, but by and large, most USHL fans' college hockey interest is limited to seeing how some of their old favorite players are doing. And as far as ECHL fans interest in college hockey, Toledo is an ECHL town, and we've seen how that works out.

Shirtless Guy
04-21-2017, 09:18 AM
On the one hand, I'd relish the 3 mile drive to the Tyson Event Center in Sioux City to watch some NCAA action. On the other hand, I'd be pretty lonely once I got there. I like your outside the box thinking in including USHL and ECHL venues like Sioux City. Bloomington, Rapid City, Loveland, etc., but I question how much college hockey interest there is in those places. In some rare instances (like with UMD having 5 former Sioux City Musketeers on their roster this year), you might be able to strike gold in one of these places, but by and large, most USHL fans' college hockey interest is limited to seeing how some of their old favorite players are doing. And as far as ECHL fans interest in college hockey, Toledo is an ECHL town, and we've seen how that works out.

my goal wasn't to be outside the box, my goal was to list all venues that fit the neutral requirement in the "West/Midwest" that I could find easily. Just about any USHL/ECHL/AHL arena should meet most of those requirements if it has 5000 capacity. This list just goes to show how few options there are in the places where college hockey fans are. If the West could get to a point where there were at least 3 successful regionals, we'd be ok.

If you could get the west regional alternating between the Xcel in St Paul and where ever North Dakota wants to host (either Fargo or Sioux Falls). I personally prefer Sioux Falls bc its bigger and would be easier to get tickets (I think).

Then you just need to find one more venue that works. I would think if Wisconsin continues to return to previous form, we could see the Badgers hosting in Madison at Alliant Energy Center. That just leaves one regional to fill every other year.

Most likely options: Cincinnati, Allentown, somewhere in Michigan hosted by Mich. or Western? I could also see one of the NCHC teams seeing if Target Center is up for it in a year where its not at Xcel.

On another note, what are typical USHL ticket prices?

purpleinnebraska
04-21-2017, 01:06 PM
On another note, what are typical USHL ticket prices?

In Sioux City, we only have an upper deck on one end, and it's closed for all but the biggest games, so I'm not sure what the prices are there. But for an adult in the lower bowl, you can walk up at game time and get a seat for $16-20. And yes, that does mean that NCAA prices would also be "sticker shock" for USHL fans.

Shirtless Guy
04-21-2017, 01:09 PM
In Sioux City, we only have an upper deck on one end, and it's closed for all but the biggest games, so I'm not sure what the prices are there. But for an adult in the lower bowl, you can walk up at game time and get a seat for $16-20. And yes, that does mean that NCAA prices would also be "sticker shock" for USHL fans.idk, the Cincinnati regional was $40 all-session so for 3 games...I guess that could be observed as sticker shock, especially when combined with the inability to leave between games.

pgb-ohio
04-21-2017, 02:11 PM
Not meaning to argue with you pgb (done enough of that in the past ;)), but are you sure of the bolded statement? Or maybe tell us exactly what the host (school) does that's really expensive for the host (venue)? I have to believe that, for example, the Worcester bid itself is pretty much the same from year to year, and they’re staffed to accommodate events larger than an NCAA regional. And there’ve been many examples posted above of schools that are nowhere close to FF venues “hosting”, so evidently hosting doesn’t require close proximity.Very surprised by this response. But maybe we've just unearthed yet another fundamental difference between the Eastern experience and the Western experience. Sometimes I get the feeling it's a wonder we can talk at all.;)

As a preface, let's remember that in any sort of business partnership, a lot of the particulars are negotiable. That certainly includes deals between a host university and an outside venue. As such, deals will vary from one to the next, geography notwithstanding.

Next, let me use OSU Hockey's experience as an illustration. When we hosted the FF in 2005, it was our show. Our people handled communications functions, game management roles, tickets, off-ice officials, the works. OK, that event was on campus. But when OSU Hockey hosted CCHA Playoff games and Holiday tournament games at Nationwide Arena, it was very much the same thing. No doubt some Nationwide staffers had to work those events, but it still very much OSU's show.

As another example, I've attended number of tournament games at The X, hosted by the University of Minnesota. Now I don't have the same ties to the MN Dept. of Athletics, so this observation comes from outsider looking in. But as far as I could tell, it was the same situation. Gopher fingerprints were everywhere; same PA announcer, same off-ice officials, and so on.

From those experiences and others, I've long assumed that this was the normal situation. But I guess I have to allow for the possibility that this is a normal Western situation, but that things are fundamentally different in the East.

Anyhow, in the arrangement I'm used to seeing, the host school provides a lot of sweat equity. The cash value may not be huge, but it isn't trivial either. And don't underestimate the fact that "easy to run" vs. "huge staff headaches" is going to come into play when decision-makers decide which events to take on. For extremely lucrative events, maybe venue management says "never mind, just let us take care of those things." But for events that are just barely viable, the deal may collapse like a house of cards without the sweat equity contributed by the host school.

I'll acknowledge that it's highly likely that permanent (or semi-permanent) hosts handle a higher percentage of the work than "one-off" hosts. Maybe that explains some portion of the different experience.

Finally, proximity isn't irrelevant, because travel isn't free. But university staff members can and do travel to work at out-of-town locations. Less common, but not particularly unusual.



It does seem to me that getting rid of the school host could accomplish some good by removing the current requirement that if a host school makes the tournament, they have to be sent to the region they host. For example, this year, the NCAA could have sent Providence College to some other regional if they thought it was unfair to Harvard to have to play a lower seeded Providence College in Providence. Or, in the Fargo/Sioux Falls example, if UND made the tournament as a fourth seed, the NCAA could send UND to another regional. Of course if they’re really concerned with attendance, they might choose not to do this, but at least it gives them a choice.No need for an overly broad "solution." Just change the current requirement. Schools already host events that their own teams aren't competing in. Example: NCAA Men's Hoops. Eliminating host schools to accomplish this goal would needlessly leave staff resources on the sidelines.

bigblue_dl
04-21-2017, 02:43 PM
Abandon the "national tournament" for the regionals. Rank the "east" 1-8, rank the "west" 1-8, and have 2 regionals in the east, since that works. In the west, have a super regional, with 8 teams, to determine the 2 west teams going to the F4. This can be done permanently in MSP, at either the X or TC, or rotating between the 2. Of course, the NCAA won't don this.