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LordofBrewtown
07-19-2016, 04:47 PM
This is one of the best analyses I've seen so far and is right on. The NCHC had very valid reasons for forming. They have been successful. They are better than the current WCHA and arguably better, top to bottom, than the old CCHA and maybe even the old WCHA. It was a smart move by their teams.



While I agree that was a good analysis, I'm not sure I agree that it was a "smart move by their teams" - or, at least it's too early to determine how smart it may have been.

My question, would anything really have been different if those teams would not have formed the NCHC, and we still had the old WCHA and CCHA? The results above don't really change much substituting UAA, MTU, MSM, and BSU for Miami and Western. Granted, the schedule changes somewhat. However you still likely have 6 or 7 of 10 teams making the NCAA's (vs 6 of 8); the same number (5) or more (6) making the conference championship game, still have the streaming and no national TV, etc.

The only benefit I really see from thew new conference is a very (likely immaterial) benefit to strength of schedule by dropping two of the "weaker sisters" from the schedule. Maybe a small attendance benefit for a couple of games as well? But, it's likely that the tournament attendance would have been better under the old setup (with MSM and MTU fielding strong teams). That could really look bad one of these years (when 3 of DU, CC, WM and MU make the semi's).

So, really, I would argue that they gained little (other than short term piece of mind since there was uncertainty at the time), and there are long term effects still yet to be determined: are Western and Miami really any better long term than Mankato, Tech, or Bemidji? Is CC in a new era of being a perpetual also-ran? If the answers to those two questions are No, and Yes...I think you have to judge the forming of the NCHC as a mistake (the comparison isn't against other current conferences - the comparison should be against what was/would have been).

LordofBrewtown
07-19-2016, 05:13 PM
The difference isn't about the on-ice product, it's about financial commitment. The departure of UMTC/UW left a power vacuum that would have granted the smaller, less financially solvent schools more voting power than DU/UND (and to a lesser extent, CC) were willing to deal with. When it comes to voting on league policies and contracts, they wanted to be in the majority, but wouldn't have been in the reduced WCHA. Hence, NCHC. It's not rocket surgery, and it has very little to do with on-ice performance.

r

So, we've got Miami and Western replacing UAA, Bemidji, Tech and Mankato. Or, if Mankato and ASU join, you've essentially traded UAA, Bemidji and Tech for Miami, Western and ASU.

The voting block doesn't seem to change that much to me in either scenario. What votes where they going to lose that they are now going to win with either exchange?

What evidence is there really that Miami and Western are that much more financially committed to hockey than Tech and Bemidji?

joecct
07-19-2016, 05:22 PM
This might have some truth, but not as much as people say. I would like to see both schools survive in D-1, but without them being decent teams, being successful at least in the conference and better, NCAA tournament quality teams, they won't draw crowds home or away, and will be a drag on the conference as a whole both in terms of money and national rankings.

But like someone said above, the travel is a red herring, if the "excess" travel costs are covered by the AK teams. The airplane ride is not significantly worse than 6+ hour bus rides, trips from the UP to UAH, or eastern time zone to rocky mountain plane trips. I personally believe that the college kids get a kick out of traveling to Anchorage or Fairbanks once in a while - they get a free trip to Alaska and often while they're there, get to see some sights they don't see in the boring midwest.

But 2 trips in the same season? 15 hrs each way for BSU. It's probably worse for UP schools.

giwan
07-19-2016, 05:40 PM
What evidence is there really that Miami and Western are that much more financially committed to hockey than Tech and Bemidji?

Football first for Western and Miami, probably followed by bouncy ball for dollar commitments.

Slap Shot
07-19-2016, 06:24 PM
I think any program not named UAA/UAF is full of crap citing travel costs when it comes to playing those programs.

Imagine you're BSU and you'd no longer have to fly to AK and one year they instead fly to CO for a NC series. How much money as a % of the annual hockey budget is saved with the latter trip? There's still per diem, hotel, food, and a flight. Add another swap perhaps an AK flight with one to MI. Again as a total % of the annual budget?

Say they save $20k on a total budget of $1m - that's 2%. No idea if either figure is remotely realistic but...

Shirtless Guy
07-19-2016, 06:31 PM
I think any program not named UAA/UAF is full of crap citing travel costs when it comes to playing those programs.

Imagine you're BSU and you'd no longer have to fly to AK and one year they instead fly to CO for a NC series. How much money as a % of the annual hockey budget is saved with the latter trip? There's still per diem, hotel, food, and a flight. Add another swap perhaps an AK flight with one to MI. Again as a total % of the annual budget? Maybe I'm completely underestimating the differential cost but...removing those schools also increases the number of time tech goes to Bemidji and Mankato. Reduces costs for the conference tournament, and comparing a one-off trip to Colorado to a team having to go to both Anchorage and Fairbanks every other year is ridiculous.

Slap Shot
07-19-2016, 06:34 PM
You replace 1 or 2 trips to AK with 1 or 2 others both of which may still require a flight. It's not automatically ridiculous without running the figures.

Shirtless Guy
07-19-2016, 07:04 PM
You replace 1 or 2 trips to AK with 1 or 2 others both of which may still require a flight. It's not automatically ridiculous without running the figures.

They wouldn't, it would be replaced with playing the rest of the conference more often...not more games with Colorado schools or eastern teams.
There is no way the WCHA voluntarily reduces their conference schedule which would just result in more road games.

Slap Shot
07-19-2016, 07:15 PM
Depending upon the size of the new conference it's not guaranteed they'd be replaced with conference games. But again the overall cost savings as % of the total budget is the figure I'd be interested in contemplating. But I'm just a dumb-dumb so...

FadeToBlack&Gold
07-19-2016, 07:23 PM
JFC, I am so tired of this sh*t.

Shirtless Guy
07-19-2016, 07:27 PM
Depending upon the size of the new conference it's not guaranteed they'd be replaced with conference games. But again the overall cost savings as % of the total budget is the figure I'd be interested in contemplating. But I'm just a dumb-dumb so...

IF UAA and UAF fold tomorrow, MTU plays LSSU, BSU, MSUM (if they don't leave), BGSU, FSU, and UAH more often. UAH already subsidizes travel so that doesn't really matter. There is no way the current WCHA gives up conference games for NC games unless they know they will still gets 16+ home games a year. Regardless of PWR implications, it would be foolish for the WCHA to not stay at 28 games if they want to continue to get the number of home games they get now.

Dirty
07-19-2016, 07:28 PM
JFC, I am so tired of this sh*t.

I blame Biddco

FadeToBlack&Gold
07-19-2016, 08:07 PM
My fellow MTU fans, who the fark cares about MN State? Christ. Remember when they were a footnote on the schedule? Let them go back to their abusive husbands in the NCHC and be happy to finish 3rd at best.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYkACVDFmeg :D :D

St. Clown
07-19-2016, 08:25 PM
My fellow MTU fans, who the fark cares about MN State? Christ. Remember when they were a footnote on the schedule? Let them go back to their abusive husbands in the NCHC and be happy to finish 3rd at best.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYkACVDFmeg :D :D

That link would be better if it ended FMEg rather than Fmeg.

purpleinnebraska
07-19-2016, 08:42 PM
Alaska is not the only long-distance road trip in the WCHA. There's also UAH. And for MSU-M and Bemidji, there are potentially 5 trips to the Eastern time zone. The conference as currently constructed just isn't sustainable. We travel more miles in a month than HE or ECAC teams do in 3 years.

FadeToBlack&Gold
07-19-2016, 08:51 PM
That link would be better if it ended FMEg rather than Fmeg.

Ha, I didn't even notice. :)

uaafanblog
07-19-2016, 11:44 PM
Uhm, the alaska schools are probably some of the biggest issues for the membership with the travel costs. Without them, the league is likely healthier.

Cos conference schools that travel to Alaska don't get subsidized travel and exemptions that will allow them to play additional home games that they otherwise wouldn't be able to play.

It's actually a net positive in terms of dollars (when properly managed) for each and every WCHA opponent to travel to Alaska as compared to any other road trip they take.

And you've been following this league for how effing long?



I think any program not named UAA/UAF is full of crap citing travel costs when it comes to playing those programs.

Imagine you're BSU and you'd no longer have to fly to AK and one year they instead fly to CO for a NC series. How much money as a % of the annual hockey budget is saved with the latter trip? There's still per diem, hotel, food, and a flight. Add another swap perhaps an AK flight with one to MI. Again as a total % of the annual budget?

Say they save $20k on a total budget of $1m - that's 2%. No idea if either figure is remotely realistic but...

Actually, the whiners are straight up full of crap just as you imply.

Slap Shot
07-20-2016, 01:15 AM
IF UAA and UAF fold tomorrow...

I don't think both teams will fold but let's say they do does every team currently fly to AK twice per year? I doubt that so it's not remove 2 flights to AK every year from the current budget. Does every team have a road series against UAH every year? Now they would. Does NMU currently fly to BSU every year? Does BSU fly every year to MTU? Deny it as you must there are going to be some flights some years that weren't there before. As Donald noted do the AK schools not shoulder some of the cost? And don't schools that play in AK gain 2 extra games on their schedule (and the resulting revenues from them) they would lose once trips to AK cease? But go ahead and just keep insisting there's a major cost savings as a % of the entire budget without actually fleshing out the figures.

pokechecker
07-20-2016, 07:21 AM
humorous thread for off season reading, poor MTU fans sound like jilted lovers

Forming the Nacho was a stroke of genius, although it wasn’t intended as such. If the old guard from the Old WCHA had done nothing the WCHA would have been viewed as a weaker conference for having lost MN & WI (and for those of us who remember, even weaker since the days when the Michigan schools left) and possibly not gotten as good of quality recruits that they have received. The Nacho was a reaction to the Big Ten, an act of self-preservation that has worked.

Nobody knew then the Big Ten would flop, but since it has, the Nacho has taken the place as the top conference. It should go without saying that everyone wishes we could go back to the old days, but that isn’t going to happen.

I cannot imagine any schools other than the Colorado schools wanting ASU to join the Nacho, it will only weaken the conference. Make them join the WCHA and become a real hockey school first. Denver & CC can always add them as NC games if they like, I can’t imagine any other Nacho wanting to play them.

The irony is that the good brand name of the WCHA is being preserved by the women, and only two of the schools have a men’s program in the WCHA. Perhaps soon to be only one.

manurespreader
07-20-2016, 08:50 AM
This thread has taught me a few things.
1. as Fade says, who the heck cares.! Jessh.! It might not happen anyway! 2. money talks. 3. UND fans are like trump supporters, long on emotion and nostalgia, but short on facts.( with the exception of dirty who is well above the average und toad and who clearly is a closet Minnesota fan) 4.. Hoped for savings and results are usually not what you end up getting. ... oh and trading away 5 trips to the eastern time zone for 2 trips east and 3 to the West is really not that big a benefit if you ask me.