Maine Black Bears - Return to the Glory Years or On to Oblivion?

[ticapnews]

Re: Maine Black Bears - Return to the Glory Years or On to Oblivion?

BTW, the numbers the university gave Emmert are not worth a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

"Revenue is down 26 percent for the Maine hockey program – the only sport at the university that has a chance to make money – from $1.43 million in 2008, the year after its last Frozen Four appearance, to $1.05 million last year."

Bull.
According to data submitted to the Department of Education under Title IX requirements, the men's hockey team reported revenues of $2,473,698 in 2008. The most recent year available is 2014, which shows revenues at $2,014,509, up from 2013 when revenues dipped to $1,901,937.
Maybe the numbers the university is providing is the revenue minus the generous subsidy the school provides to the athletic department? If so, they should clarify that.
The first step in any recovery is an honest assessment of where things stand. If you can't even do that why even bother going through the motions?

[NorthMike]

BTW, the numbers the university gave Emmert are not worth a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

I have wondered for some time why the athletic Dept costs and revenues are not more transparent. This is a public university. Are these numbers available somewhere?

[ticapnews]

Re: Maine Black Bears - Return to the Glory Years or On to Oblivion?

I have wondered for some time why the athletic Dept costs and revenues are not more transparent. This is a public university. Are these numbers available somewhere?

They are available on the DoE website, but thanks to accounting, the numbers are pretty meaningless since 2011. Now revenues = expenses 100% of the time in every sport at almost every school.

I do not want to sound like a conspiracy nut, but the school seems to go out of its way not to give numbers in a very meaningful or useful manner. For example, I can guess those numbers at DoE include some or all of the money from the subsidy the school gives the athletic department. The numbers given to Emmert seem to say the actual revenues and expenses are different. Even in internal documents available on the web when you do a search, the school is careful not to separate sports. I found a 2013 study but that only broke out football and the basketball teams and combined every other sport (sure would have been nice to see numbers for hockey!). In other places they combine men's and women's hockey, which again is not very useful because their revenue is almost non-existent while expenses are through the roof. Despite being a public university I have found no transparent reporting anywhere.

[BoSox3066]

Re: Maine Black Bears - Return to the Glory Years or On to Oblivion?

The "price" of a scholarship in those those kinds of reports is also very fungable. Theoretically you could make it cost 25-30k per kid per year, or nil, depending on what you want the end result to be

[ticapnews]

Re: Maine Black Bears - Return to the Glory Years or On to Oblivion?

The "price" of a scholarship in those those kinds of reports is also very fungable. Theoretically you could make it cost 25-30k per kid per year, or nil, depending on what you want the end result to be

All accounting seems to be like that. I remember when I applied for financial aid freshman year my expected cost of attendance was $9999. That next year tuition jumped 7% and room&board went up double digits. My expected cost of attendance on the FAFSA for my second year was still $9999. Math is fun!

[BBDiehard14]

Re: Maine Black Bears - Return to the Glory Years or On to Oblivion?

I agree. AMC is a fine human being, but I can't for the life of me understand why he has such a hahd-on for dropping football. Cos kept Maine relevant -and even excellent at times- for many years. Hope this new guy can continue to pluck talent from places like NJ.

( One thing I *think* is going to happen within a couple of years is that BCS wins v. FCS teams will not factor into the BCS equation anymore... So Maine needs to schedule 'Bama ASAP! )

Cosgrove also could never beat UNH and his offensive coordinators were terrible play-callers. Why the hell UMaine gave him a **** admin position is beyond me.

[KRBFLINT03]

That's nice but it doesn't erase the $1M black hole the football program creates in the athletic budget. The team would have to play all four NC games against D-I opposition and collect another $700K to even come close to covering the losses.

First post here in the Maine thread. I am a long-time "lurker", but typically reserve my posts for the D3 board. I do read this thread daily, however. That said, I am an alum of UM (though not a graduate) and a lifelong Black Bear hockey fan.

All these posts blaming hockey's struggles on football are laughable, and it comes off as very whiny. There are myriad reasons behind the decline of our hockey program, but football isn't one of them. When comments like "JV football" program are made, it ramps up the whine factor, comes off as asinine, and is factually inaccurate. Stop it.

I desperately want UM hockey "back", but I know we'll never be what we were from '88-'07. In the current landscape of d1 men's hockey, that's almost impossible to replicate. Everyone agrees that money is the issue. I suggest that the most negative of you start writing checks, rather than ranting online.

[BoSox3066]

Cosgrove also could never beat UNH and his offensive coordinators were terrible play-callers. Why the hell UMaine gave him a **** admin position is beyond me.

Have you ever met Cos? If you had you'd know why they gave him an admin/fundraising position. He's very very good "in the living room" and at connecting with the checkbook types.

[AMC]

Re: Maine Black Bears - Return to the Glory Years or On to Oblivion?

I agree. AMC is a fine human being, but I can't for the life of me understand why he has such a hahd-on for dropping football. Cos kept Maine relevant -and even excellent at times- for many years. Hope this new guy can continue to pluck talent from places like NJ.

( One thing I *think* is going to happen within a couple of years is that BCS wins v. FCS teams will not factor into the BCS equation anymore... So Maine needs to schedule 'Bama ASAP! )

My argument is that no FCS football program is "relevant." And certainly no FCS football team is "excellent" and that includes North Dakota State, the reigning 94 time FCS champion.

There is one sport, and one sport only, at the University of Maine that could conceivably ever win a national title at the highest level and that is men's ice hockey. If the school can't compete nationally in hockey, there is zero point in not dropping to division 3. We could compete there with local kids and save a bundle.

[ticapnews]

Re: Maine Black Bears - Return to the Glory Years or On to Oblivion?

First post here in the Maine thread. I am a long-time "lurker", but typically reserve my posts for the D3 board. I do read this thread daily, however. That said, I am an alum of UM (though not a graduate) and a lifelong Black Bear hockey fan.

All these posts blaming hockey's struggles on football are laughable, and it comes off as very whiny. There are myriad reasons behind the decline of our hockey program, but football isn't one of them. When comments like "JV football" program are made, it ramps up the whine factor, comes off as asinine, and is factually inaccurate. Stop it.

I desperately want UM hockey "back", but I know we'll never be what we were from '88-'07. In the current landscape of d1 men's hockey, that's almost impossible to replicate. Everyone agrees that money is the issue. I suggest that the most negative of you start writing checks, rather than ranting online.

I am not blaming hockey's problems on the football program. There are plenty of problems that need fixing. However, I am dealing with economic realities. The football team loses a boatload of money that it will NEVER get back. I don't care if they win the next 100 games and 10 national championships. It doesn't matter. Even at national powerhouses with household names football doesn't turn a profit (some of that is by design). A college football team in eastern Maine will NEVER be a revenue-positive sport. Once you go north of the Mason-Dixon Line and East of Happy Valley no one gives a flying fig about local college football. Bates and Bowdoin will typically get just as many, or more, fans at a football game as UMaine.

The UM system is about to face $50M shortfall. That money has to come from somewhere, and it sure as hell isn't coming from Augusta. If you want to look at a huge program that is incredibly expensive and will never, ever come close to turning a profit look no further than the inhabitants of Alumni Field.

[AMC]

Re: Maine Black Bears - Return to the Glory Years or On to Oblivion?

To expand on my previous post, which I realize was abrupt:

In my mind, there are two reasons that a University would decide to spend millions of dollars on athletics and not on, you know, educating the student body (disregarding the Big 10/SEC/Big XII schools that actually turn a profit):

1. "Athletics are the front porch of the university. It’s not the most important room in the house, but it is the most visible." -Scott Barnes, Utah State AD

Basically, in this theory you sponsor college sports because they are visible. It's what people see or think of when they hear the name of a school. Athletics are the gateway to the university, so you better have a nice gateway. This is why I question FCS football- how many people know or follow the subdivision? How many people are aware that Maine is (say) tied for the CAA title and ranked 16th in the nation in the FCS? What did that accomplish? Hockey is the only sport Maine has that can really make anyone sit up and take notice of the university.

Right now, the fictional UMaine front porch is two steps leading up to a 4' x 4' wooden square, infested with dry rot. That isn't enticing ANYONE to want to poke around inside (nevermind that extending this analogy, the indoors is a really nice parlor representing the engineering program and about eight rooms that have been overrun by raccoons and possums).

2. College sports, as an extracurricular, provide value to the athletes and are part of a holistic education benefiting the student body as a whole

This is the Colby/Bates/Bowdoin model. Some ridiculous percentage of the students at your typical D3 school are athletes. College athletics don't exist there to draw attention to the school- college athletics are there because it benefits the athletes themselves, who are the tuition paying recipients of the college's main product (an education). At D-I schools, athletes tend to live a disconnected, separate life than the rest of the student body. The average student has little, if any, interaction with the athletes and vice versa. The benefits of playing a sport and learning the "life lessons" that sports provide are limited to a select few who were recruited to the school and attend on scholarship. If the purpose of college athletics are these intangible benefits, why play D-I and why not play D-III?

I'm a big believer that if you pick an organizational philosophy, you shouldn't half *** it. **** or get off the pot, as a crusty old Mainer would say. I don't think anyone would disagree that Maine athletics is sitting on the toilet with its pants pulled down, but nothing is happening.

[KRBFLINT03]

Re: Maine Black Bears - Return to the Glory Years or On to Oblivion?

I post this as a passionate fan of college hockey...

Nationwide, FCS football is more "relevant" than all of college hockey. I don't like it, but it's a fact.

[BBDiehard14]

Re: Maine Black Bears - Return to the Glory Years or On to Oblivion?

I am not blaming hockey's problems on the football program. There are plenty of problems that need fixing. However, I am dealing with economic realities. The football team loses a boatload of money that it will NEVER get back. I don't care if they win the next 100 games and 10 national championships. It doesn't matter. Even at national powerhouses with household names football doesn't turn a profit (some of that is by design). A college football team in eastern Maine will NEVER be a revenue-positive sport. Once you go north of the Mason-Dixon Line and East of Happy Valley no one gives a flying fig about local college football. Bates and Bowdoin will typically get just as many, or more, fans at a football game as UMaine.

The UM system is about to face $50M shortfall. That money has to come from somewhere, and it sure as hell isn't coming from Augusta. If you want to look at a huge program that is incredibly expensive and will never, ever come close to turning a profit look no further than the inhabitants of Alumni Field.

Ding, ding, ding! College football will never be relevant in New England. Just the way it is. And if anybody thinks Cosgrove will do anything in his new position to help the hockey program, you're nuts.

[AMC]

Re: Maine Black Bears - Return to the Glory Years or On to Oblivion?

I post this as a passionate fan of college hockey...

Nationwide, FCS football is more "relevant" than all of college hockey. I don't like it, but it's a fact.

I think there is more value in beating Michigan and the other Big Ten schools, or BC, or the Ivies (who decline to participate in the FCS playoffs), or Notre Dame than there is in beating North Dakota State, Charleston Southern or Sam Houston State.

No, neither gets huge ratings or big accolades on ESPN. But in the past three years the following teams have been in the Frozen Four:

Providence, Boston U, Omaha, North Dakota (2), Minnesota, Union, Boston College, Quinnipiac, St, Cloud State, Yale, Lowell.

And the FCS semis:

North Dakota State (3), Jacksonville State, Sam Houston State (2), Richmond, Illinois State, New Hampshire (2), Towson, Eastern Washington

What little conversation there is about either, I'd rather Maine be in the first conversation than the second. The second list (UNH and Richmond aside) is a real who's who of academic mediocrity. Being in the Frozen Four with the first group doesn't get you a huge front porch, but it gives you a nice, clean, attractive small one.

[ticapnews]

Re: Maine Black Bears - Return to the Glory Years or On to Oblivion?

I post this as a passionate fan of college hockey...

Nationwide, FCS football is more "relevant" than all of college hockey. I don't like it, but it's a fact.

Nationwide that is true. Again, we live in a geographic region where that isn't the case, and will never be the case. It's reality. John Diamond could have a limitless budget to promote the sport and it isn't going to matter. Which is irrelevant, because John and his friends in the athletic department have a very limited budget.