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MoFan
03-28-2014, 02:16 PM
Yup and a lower winning percentage. Berenson had to turn around the program first and it took years. It's not an apples to apples comparison given where the programs stood when they first became coach.

firstpusk
03-28-2014, 02:56 PM
Berenson had to turn around the program first and it took years. It's not an apples to apples comparison given where the programs stood when they first became coach.

He's coached twice as many games. More than enough apples.

MoFan
03-28-2014, 03:37 PM
I just don't agree but I'm sure that we can co-exist. If you take out Red's first four years his winning percentage climbs to .700. If you take out Jerry York's first four seasons at BC (he had to turn around the program as well), he's at .692. Pretty fine company. Not sure but I'd guess that Ned Harkness' .740 winning percentage is tops all-time.

We can probably both agree that Red's most recent two seasons and Doug's last two seasons were decidedly subpar. If not, I'm entirely sure that you'll find #AskNeal funny if you haven't looked already. ;)

Happy
03-28-2014, 03:41 PM
I did read my prior post. I agree with his assessment of Berenson today; I disagree with the comparison to Woog. Woog inherited a program that was winning 30 games a season pretty regularly and had a huge in-state recruiting advantage. Berenson inherited a program that hadn't been a winning program in a while. It took him a few years, but he turned around the program and built up a recruiting advantage. He didn't inherit a winning program and a recruiting advantage.

I think that Berenson was a great coach who surrounded himself with good recruiters and early on did some of the key recruiting himself. I think that Woog was closer to an average coach.

Just my opinion.

He is now just like woog at the end of woogs term.

MoFan
03-28-2014, 03:44 PM
That I can agree with! #AskHappy

MoFan
03-28-2014, 03:46 PM
I kind of don't agree. It's just been 3 years since we were runer up, and we went to the FF in Denver not long before that.Do you think that Di Giuseppe, Nieves, Guptill etc. are developing as players?

alfablue
03-28-2014, 03:59 PM
Do you think that Di Giuseppe, Nieves, Guptill etc. are developing as players?

I'll not comment on Nieves until he's leaving- he would not be the first player who had a good freshman year followed by a poor sophomore one.

But PDG and Guptil developed as much as Jack Johnson did- which is to say they none. The question is- is the lack of development due to the players or the coaches? If they worked hard every time on the ice, and demonstrated some effort more often, and they regressed- you could call that coaching. But given other recent history, other voices that talk of discontent in the locker, etc- I would also put some of the blame on the players.

In additition to that, other players under Red in the recent past HAVE developed to be better players. Copp has, Sinelli has (did a great job not being a defeseman), Racine has (not enough, perhaps, but better), Bennet got better.... So to pick out the two players who had effort issues as a glaring example of problems is not representative.

Hard to argue that most of the roster that went to the NC didn't improve.

I'd like to give the team one more year. Many apples that have had worms in the past few years are gone. If we STILL see the team stagnate after two months, I'll be more against Red and the staff.

5mn_Major
03-28-2014, 04:38 PM
I'd like to give the team one more year. Many apples that have had worms in the past few years are gone. If we STILL see the team stagnate after two months, I'll be more against Red and the staff.

The trick will be the amount of turnover. Expectations and likely outcomes will probably not be very high (as stated half of the top ten scorers will be gone). So it may not be doing Red any favors because this should be a tough season. Having said that, if the team is in the hunt for the Bi6 season title...he will deserve any accolades he gets.

alfablue
03-28-2014, 04:49 PM
The trick will be the amount of turnover. Expectations and likely outcomes will probably not be very high (as stated half of the top ten scorers will be gone). So it may not be doing Red any favors because this should be a tough season. Having said that, if the team is in the hunt for the Bi6 season title...he will deserve any accolades he gets.


Of course I want to see the team win the B1G championship and go to the tournamnet, and even win.

But my higher priority is to see improvement. And I try to pay attention to what close writers are publishing in terms of what's wrong- while they never blame the players directly, they do hint some thing, and it can be pretty clear on the ice if someone is not being part of the team.

Sometimes turnover is good. I know I never expected that losing Jack Johnson and graduating TJ Hensick and Matt Hunwick that you would go from losing in the first round to going to the Frozen Four AND have a player be Hobey Baker winner. But it happened.

streaker
03-29-2014, 08:15 AM
The problem pretty soon is going to be recruiting. Who is developing at Michigan? Did Di Giuseppe leave because he developed and is ready for the NHL, or because he didn't really develop further the last couple of years? What about Guptil and Nieves?

If you're a top recruit these days, why would you go to Michigan over BC, MN or WI? Quinnipiac and Union have also come on quite a bit.

I'm a Michigan fan and grad (MBA), those 90s teams were excellent and I had a blast. I love Red and he's an iconic coach but I think it's time to step down. Stay with the program for sure but we need new leadership or we're going to dig ourselves into a five year hole. Maybe we already have.

Jon Merrill is the counterpoint to my argument, it seems like he had a nice transition to the AHL and was quickly called up. He's one of the few Devils playing well.

I listen to Cornell fans (I'm one of them too) go back and forth about Schafer and I just laugh.

1. Threads like this are just invitations to troll

2. Before starting a threadlike this one should get the facts

3. The coaching staff in general can't take all the rap for "development". PDG was a loner that didn't put in the work he needed to in order to be more successful. Ditto Guptill. Look at their +/- for their careers. Outside of OSU, Guptill did nothing, was a floater. You really think that is going to play well at the next level? Stop trying to point fingers at the coaching for anything other than getting the type of character kids Michigan needs. Luke Glendening is a perfect example.

MoFan
03-30-2014, 08:39 AM
Please. I'm not a troll, I've been a Michigan hockey fan since 1995. It's my view that the coaching staff is responsible for recruiting players who will be willing to put in the work and to continue to motivate them - on that part seemingly we can agree. You think that a player like Mike Legg didn't need to be pushed and prodded when he was at Michigan? I'm actually a big Berenson fan, I just think it's time.

5mn_Major
03-30-2014, 10:03 AM
I hope this is not considered a troll...but...

You could compare MN and MI...not incomparable programs. There were two periods where MN didn't make the NCAAs for three year stretches: 98, 99, 00 and 09, 10, 11. In the late stages of one, we let Woog go...and in the late stages of the other we kept Lucia. Both were coaches with great records. But the difference was in the Woog stretch, the team was just not good and underperformed. In the Lucia stretch, it was caused by a stellar foundation that was so good that it left early. We had EJ (number 1 overall), Okposo, Jim OBrien, Stu Bickel, Sam Lofquist and others...that left somewhere between their freshman or sophomore years. It left a gigantic whole in the program. The point is that there were reasons that we should hit the skids under Lucia and there weren't under Woog. Once Woog left and we had a single subsequent down year, we got numbers 4 and 5.

alfablue
03-30-2014, 12:45 PM
I hope this is not considered a troll...but...

You could compare MN and MI...not incomparable programs. There were two periods where MN didn't make the NCAAs for three year stretches: 98, 99, 00 and 09, 10, 11. In the late stages of one, we let Woog go...and in the late stages of the other we kept Lucia. Both were coaches with great records. But the difference was in the Woog stretch, the team was just not good and underperformed. In the Lucia stretch, it was caused by a stellar foundation that was so good that it left early. We had EJ (number 1 overall), Okposo, Jim OBrien, Stu Bickel, Sam Lofquist and others...that left somewhere between their freshman or sophomore years. It left a gigantic whole in the program. The point is that there were reasons that we should hit the skids under Lucia and there weren't under Woog. Once Woog left and we had a single subsequent down year, we got numbers 4 and 5.

I think that is a valid comparison. Still, I still think it's also valid to give Red one more year to better determine what the cause is.

Had we tanked the entire year, especially since we'd seen the players outside of the freshmen, then I would be a lot more worried. But we know the team can compete- they did beat BC, Ferris, Wisconsin, and Minnesota. It was not even, sure, but they did at least show what they could do. Why they suffered agaisnt PSU and MSU is a big question. I'll give him another year.

UMICH
04-09-2014, 01:15 AM
I'm still saying, both Mel and Red's contract expire at the same time. Coincidence? I think not...

wolverineTrumpet
04-09-2014, 07:45 AM
I hope this is not considered a troll...but...

You could compare MN and MI...not incomparable programs. There were two periods where MN didn't make the NCAAs for three year stretches: 98, 99, 00 and 09, 10, 11. In the late stages of one, we let Woog go...and in the late stages of the other we kept Lucia. Both were coaches with great records. But the difference was in the Woog stretch, the team was just not good and underperformed. In the Lucia stretch, it was caused by a stellar foundation that was so good that it left early. We had EJ (number 1 overall), Okposo, Jim OBrien, Stu Bickel, Sam Lofquist and others...that left somewhere between their freshman or sophomore years. It left a gigantic whole in the program. The point is that there were reasons that we should hit the skids under Lucia and there weren't under Woog. Once Woog left and we had a single subsequent down year, we got numbers 4 and 5.

Early departures are a valid point, but also something to be expected when you recruit top caliber players. As I'm sure both Minnesota and Michigan fans know, it's not a question of "will someone leave early this offseason?" but "how many?"
Imagine this years team with Trouba, and Merrill. Or last year's team with Chris Brown. Now imagine this team or last year's team backstopped by John Gibson (who made his NHL debut yesterday with a shutout of Vancouver).

Think to our goaltending these past two years where we didn't make the tourney. Last year could have been Jack Campbell's senior year, and this could have been Gibson's senior year. Both bailed before ever playing for the Wolverines. Goaltending has been an obvious struggle for Michigan the past few years. You can't expect a 3rd string goalie like Shaun Hunwick to take you to the Frozen Four. And it's hard to recruit top goalies when you have even higher rated goalies that have signed letters of intent. Who would want to be 2nd string at Michigan when they could be 1st string elsewhere in D1?

Just a few thoughts. As for Red, I'm happy to have him coaching my favorite team and believe he is a positive influence on the lives of all the players he coaches.

streaker
04-09-2014, 11:08 PM
Please. I'm not a troll, I've been a Michigan hockey fan since 1995. It's my view that the coaching staff is responsible for recruiting players who will be willing to put in the work and to continue to motivate them - on that part seemingly we can agree. You think that a player like Mike Legg didn't need to be pushed and prodded when he was at Michigan? I'm actually a big Berenson fan, I just think it's time.

No, you are not a troll. People that perpetually post crap about "retirement watch" and "contract expiring" are like stopped clocks. Sooner or later the time will be correct (at least twice a day) and they will go "aha, I was right".

Every team has a few kids that for whatever reason can't be motivated at the collegiate level then leave for what they think are greener pastures and ride buses for the next ten years. It is not a coaching issue and I refuse to accept that mentality. I can't even agree that the coaching staff "knows" this when they recruit these kids. They change after being in the program-some grow others regress. Comparing young men from 15-20 years ago isn't even the same as the mentality of the athlete today. I look at Berenson and don't see one difference in how he ran his program then and now. Sooner or later fans need to understand that it isn't just x's and o's- and that the responsibility is on the athlete to balance the rigors of D1 academics, athletics and social interaction.

FRICKER
04-13-2014, 05:29 AM
In my opinion, Mel Pearson was doing the duty of the HC and Red was plaing the role of "The Statesman. Billy & Mel did the foot work recruiting and brought the prospects to Yost to close the deal. This situation
was greatly enhanced by having the USA Hockey training facility right down the street. A big dropoff was experienced while Mel continued his training to replace Red by being the HC of Michigan Tech for a few years.
The time is nearing for Mel to replace Red (seamlessly).

RapidsCity
04-13-2014, 08:21 AM
In my opinion, Mel Pearson was doing the duty of the HC and Red was plaing the role of "The Statesman. Billy & Mel did the foot work recruiting and brought the prospects to Yost to close the deal. This situation
was greatly enhanced by having the USA Hockey training facility right down the street. A big dropoff was experienced while Mel continued his training to replace Red by being the HC of Michigan Tech for a few years.
The time is nearing for Mel to replace Red (seamlessly).

Did the increase in early departures caused by the latest NHL CBA have anything to do with it?

Huskiefan906
04-13-2014, 08:26 AM
I think at Mel's age, his only drive is to achieve the most for Michigan Tech.
A WCHA title, tourney berths, all progressing to a shot at a national championship in the next 4-8 years is all that is on the radar.
I will be really surprised if Michigan gets him back.

RapidsCity
04-13-2014, 06:25 PM
I would be surprised if MTU will be able to renew his contract after his five year contract ends in a couple of years.

Why? If he's not offered the Michigan job, why would it be hard for Tech to retain him? They've given him everything he's asked for.