UNH Wildcats 2014 Post-Season Thread: "Maybe Dick" Hunts the Great White Whale

[Snively65]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2014 Post-Season Thread: "Maybe Dick" Hunts the Great White Whale

Fair point about the draft rounds, but it's still a pretty substantial dropoff in terms of the type of players we are recruiting

What really impresses me about C-H-C's summary is how well the Cats did in the NCAAs in 1997-1999 and 2001-2003, as we did not have that many top 6 or 7 NHL draft picks then either (only Souza in the earlier two-year run, although several in round 6-7 range for the second two-year run). Also, I always thought that Haydar deserved more than a cup of coffee in the NHL, as he had a great career just one level below, I think.

[HockeyRef]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2014 Post-Season Thread: "Maybe Dick" Hunts the Great White Whale

Interesting to see that Union's Shayne G (Ghost) has joined the Flyers affiliate Phantoms (Kevin G's team) today...as well as Minnie's Seratorre (sp). Funny; they just played against each other in the FF . Imagine this is common place just kind of fun to note. Wonder if our Brett P will be next (year)...

[Ryan422]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2014 Post-Season Thread: "Maybe Dick" Hunts the Great White Whale

Up until 2004, the NHL Draft included 9 rounds. Since 2005, there have been 7 rounds. Players drafted in either Round 8 or 9 (*) probably would not have been drafted by an NHL team if there had been only 7 rounds.

Interesting but for conversation sake say there were still 9 rounds, would there be any more draft picks on the last couple of UNH teams? That's a hard thing to predict but I would say no. Partly because some of those 8 or 9 round draft picks were still really, really good back ten or so years ago.

And even though the draft dropped from 9 rounds to 7 the number of current college players or recruits drafted has remain pretty consistent since 2000:

2000-2004 (9 rounds) 53,79,75,90
2005-2013 (7 rounds) 71,68,78,62,67,63,61,67,63

And you look at some of those other 'top programs' and they still continue to get a lot of draft picks and the number drafted college players has remained relatively high even though the NHL eliminated two rounds of the draft. Yet UNH is still lacking.

But as I and others have said, draft picks are not the be all, end all. You can be successful with few or none(Union w/1 but now none*) or unsuccessful with a lot (Harvard and others)

*Gostisbehere signed an entry level deal with the Flyers.

[Ryan422]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2014 Post-Season Thread: "Maybe Dick" Hunts the Great White Whale

And C-H-C caught a little mistake. You need to take Sean Collins out of the 2001-02 FF year and put him in the 2002-03 FF year.

And Haydar wasn't drafted until after the 1998-99 season. Not sure if that was done on purpose w/ players drafted in the future?

Otherwise nice work putting that all together

[C-H-C]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2014 Post-Season Thread: "Maybe Dick" Hunts the Great White Whale

And C-H-C caught a little mistake. You need to take Sean Collins out of the 2001-02 FF year and put him in the 2002-03 FF year.

And Haydar wasn't drafted until after the 1998-99 season. Not sure if that was done on purpose w/ players drafted in the future?

Otherwise nice work putting that all together

Thanks for catching that Ryan. I found three UNH players who were drafted in the summer between their freshman and sophomore years - Haydar, Collins and Pesce. I included each of them on the list for their freshman year. Are there others?

[Snively65]

Interesting but for conversation sake say there were still 9 rounds, would there be any more draft picks on the last couple of UNH teams? That's a hard thing to predict but I would say no. Partly because some of those 8 or 9 round draft picks were still really, really good back ten or so years ago.

And, a couple of those no. 2 picks not so good, to balance some really good non-drafted players.

[HockeyRef]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2014 Post-Season Thread: "Maybe Dick" Hunts the Great White Whale

Nick Sorkin nets the gwg tonight his first professional goal! Congrats Nick!! Also named #1 Star of the game...Many more to come..

[Ryan422]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2014 Post-Season Thread: "Maybe Dick" Hunts the Great White Whale

Thanks for catching that Ryan. I found three UNH players who were drafted in the summer between their freshman and sophomore years - Haydar, Collins and Pesce. I included each of them on the list for their freshman year. Are there others?

In addition to those I got Winnik ('04) Foley ('00) Abbot ('00).

And going back a year before your chart Souza was drafted in the '97 draft after his freshman year.

Interesting..from 1989-96 UNH had zero current players drafted ('89-91 there were 12 rounds;'92-94 there were 11). Then between 1997-04 there were six UNH players drafted (3 in the 9th round- Haydar,Collins,Winnik). Then Between 2005-12 there were zero drafted players again. Then Pesce got drafted last year.

[Chuck Murray]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2014 Post-Season Thread: "Maybe Dick" Hunts the Great White Whale

I usually don't get involved in draft-related discussions, but in reviewing C-H-C's exhaustive listing of UNH draft picks (well done BTW) dating back to the '97/'98 season, it's hard not to be struck by how few of those players ever got even a cup of coffee at the NHL level.

* Only JvR and Dan Winnik (the latter basically a 3rd/4th line forward) are the only players with 100+ NHL games
* Darren Haydar and Derek Bekar are the only other two to have played 10+ games (and both under 25 games)
* A large majority of the drafted players played zero (0) games at the NHL level (at least not RS or playoffs)

In the meantime, undrafted guys like Jason Krog and Bobby Butler (so far) have been classic AHL/NHL 'tweeners with 100+ NHL games.

Not sure how that reflects on the crap-shoot nature of the lower rounds of the NHL Draft, or maybe even how these players developed (or not) during their time at UNH. I think many of us have resigned ourselves to the idea that UNH is simply not fishing in the same talent "pond" as the likes of BC and BU historically, and C-H-C's list certainly bears that out.

But the question I have - and I'm not trying to start trouble, honestly - is this ...

Should we be impressed with Coach Umile's ability to have kept UNH punching above its weight for so long? OR ...
Should we be troubled by the fact so few of Coach Umile's players have gone on to successful NHL careers?

I'll be interested to see how the likes of TvR, Knodel, Goumas and Sorkin (and eventually Pesce) make out in the coming years. But to be totally honest, history is hardly on their side. JMHO.

[Rover]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2014 Post-Season Thread: "Maybe Dick" Hunts the Great White Whale

I usually don't get involved in draft-related discussions, but in reviewing C-H-C's exhaustive listing of UNH draft picks (well done BTW) dating back to the '97/'98 season, it's hard not to be struck by how few of those players ever got even a cup of coffee at the NHL level.

* Only JvR and Dan Winnik (the latter basically a 3rd/4th line forward) are the only players with 100+ NHL games
* Darren Haydar and Derek Bekar are the only other two to have played 10+ games (and both under 25 games)
* A large majority of the drafted players played zero (0) games at the NHL level (at least not RS or playoffs)

In the meantime, undrafted guys like Jason Krog and Bobby Butler (so far) have been classic AHL/NHL 'tweeners with 100+ NHL games.

Not sure how that reflects on the crap-shoot nature of the lower rounds of the NHL Draft, or maybe even how these players developed (or not) during their time at UNH. I think many of us have resigned ourselves to the idea that UNH is simply not fishing in the same talent "pond" as the likes of BC and BU historically, and C-H-C's list certainly bears that out.

But the question I have - and I'm not trying to start trouble, honestly - is this ...

Should we be impressed with Coach Umile's ability to have kept UNH punching above its weight for so long? OR ...
Should we be troubled by the fact so few of Coach Umile's players have gone on to successful NHL careers?

I'll be interested to see how the likes of TvR, Knodel, Goumas and Sorkin (and eventually Pesce) make out in the coming years. But to be totally honest, history is hardly on their side. JMHO.

Had similar discussions with BU fans during our lean years, and I think the words "Union: National Champions" lays waste to the theory that a school like UNH can't compete. If they can get a bunch of players together to put up 12 goals on BC and Minny in back to back games, I find it hard to believe most HE teams with the resources they have couldn't do the same once in awhile.

[NCAA watcher]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2014 Post-Season Thread: "Maybe Dick" Hunts the Great White Whale

Chuck,
your observations point out that the NHL draft is a very rought and poor proxy for good recruiting. Junior scoring is the far closer proxy. For example, Darren Haydar set the OJHL scoring record with 71 goals and 140 points. Krog finished second in the BCHL in scoring with 128 points (undrafted). Mowers had 51 goals in 47 games (undrafted). Laleggia finished 5th in scoring as a defenseman. Downing finished just outside of BCHL top 10.

Mowers, Haydar and Krog were of the era where teams could wait for late bloomers. By moving to a younger age, they've had a bad record for two reasons - (1) We've beaten to death them not being able to bring in the young recruits that did develop, and (2) they recruited talents who didn't pan out. Most unfortunate, lately, was the Mid-Atlantic buy-in from 2008 to 2011, which only got them Gaudrault, Sorkin, Hill, Smith and Thrush. Of all the talent committed early in that plan, they missed Jon Gaudreau (the first 2010 recruiting). That expansion into the new American hotbed was at the expense of trying in Ontario, which provided Peter Leblanc in 2004 and nothing until Eric Chevrier early commit in 2008, and then nothing until Foegele in 2013.

Returning to the junior hockey stats issue, we've gone through the "for five years no UNH player finished in USHL top 40 scoring" mantra. No player finished in top 10 of BCHL scoring since Brett Hemingway in 03.
The two guys who were in those groups (Vecchione and Laleggia) were pizzed away by the staff.
The good news is that those streaks are broken this next year if Poturalski and McNicholas actually arive.

[C-H-C]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2014 Post-Season Thread: "Maybe Dick" Hunts the Great White Whale

I usually don't get involved in draft-related discussions, but in reviewing C-H-C's exhaustive listing of UNH draft picks (well done BTW) dating back to the '97/'98 season, it's hard not to be struck by how few of those players ever got even a cup of coffee at the NHL level.

* Only JvR and Dan Winnik (the latter basically a 3rd/4th line forward) are the only players with 100+ NHL games
* Darren Haydar and Derek Bekar are the only other two to have played 10+ games (and both under 25 games)
* A large majority of the drafted players played zero (0) games at the NHL level (at least not RS or playoffs)

In the meantime, undrafted guys like Jason Krog and Bobby Butler (so far) have been classic AHL/NHL 'tweeners with 100+ NHL games.

Not sure how that reflects on the crap-shoot nature of the lower rounds of the NHL Draft, or maybe even how these players developed (or not) during their time at UNH. I think many of us have resigned ourselves to the idea that UNH is simply not fishing in the same talent "pond" as the likes of BC and BU historically, and C-H-C's list certainly bears that out.

But the question I have - and I'm not trying to start trouble, honestly - is this ...

Should we be impressed with Coach Umile's ability to have kept UNH punching above its weight for so long? OR ...
Should we be troubled by the fact so few of Coach Umile's players have gone on to successful NHL careers?

I'll be interested to see how the likes of TvR, Knodel, Goumas and Sorkin (and eventually Pesce) make out in the coming years. But to be totally honest, history is hardly on their side. JMHO.

Had similar discussions with BU fans during our lean years, and I think the words "Union: National Champions" lays waste to the theory that a school like UNH can't compete. If they can get a bunch of players together to put up 12 goals on BC and Minny in back to back games, I find it hard to believe most HE teams with the resources they have couldn't do the same once in awhile.

Chuck & Rover - You've succinctly articulated the core questions on UNH recruiting and "NHL prospects". A few thoughts occurred to me as I was putting together the summary of UNH players and their NHL credentials.

(1) It can be misleading to think of the UNH players selected in any given NHL draft as "NHL talent". What's more objective and measurable is how productive the player became at the NHL level. By that metric, UNH has had very few "NHL productive" players on its rosters.

(2) In general, the 18-year-olds who are drafted by NHL clubs tend to be big kids who either already play a physical style of hockey (i.e., like to dish out/finish body checks and/or can absorb/tolerate body checks) or have the basic frame to play the physical style in the coming years. Of course, these prospects must also be gifted in the skill areas of the game (e.g., speed, hands, vision, play-making). JvR is a good example of a guy who didn't play a particularly physical game in college but added muscle to his big frame in his first couple years as a pro and learned to play an NHL-style, physical game. Winnik, on the other hand, could already play a physical game when he came to UNH and he became even more physical as a pro.

(3) The difference in the physicality of the player helps explains why Tyler Kelleher was not drafted, despite being the leading scorer on the US NTDP U17 and U18 teams, and why Shane Eiserman, who also played on the NTDP, will be drafted. Eiserman is already a big, physical player though his offensive production has been much less than Kelleher’s was.

(4) UNH has not attracted many players whose size and physicality allow them to eventually succeed at the NHL level while a handful of programs (e.g., Michigan, Minnesota, North Dakota, BC, BU) routinely do attract such players.

(5) The size of the ice surface at the Whittemore Center tends not to be attractive to young players with the prototypical NHL physique and skill set. Would UNH be more successful in getting top NHL prospects if it had a Head Coach with NHL credentials who prefers an NHL-style of play? Maybe, but would that type of coach want to come to UNH and play on the Olympic-sized rink?

(6) Programs such as Union have proven that you don't need several bona fide NHL prospects to win a National Championship. If UNH can field a team with 2 or 3 players who have been selected somewhere in the top 5 rounds of an NHL draft, plus several players who end up succeeding at the AHL level or in the top European Leagues, then it’s reasonable to expect them to make it to the Frozen Four more than once every 10 years. Once a team gets to the Frozen Four, anything can happen.

[JB]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2014 Post-Season Thread: "Maybe Dick" Hunts the Great White Whale

(5) The size of the ice surface at the Whittemore Center tends not to be attractive to young players with the prototypical NHL physique and skill set. Would UNH be more successful in getting top NHL prospects if it had a Head Coach with NHL credentials who prefers an NHL-style of play? Maybe, but would that type of coach want to come to UNH and play on the Olympic-sized rink?

It is not the size of the ice. This is a terrible excuse and it should not be allowed to continue.

The old NHL rink size was 185 x 85 that has changed with all the new buildings. Currently NHL Ice is 200 X 85 (see NHL.com) it has been the last 15 years and believe the old garden was the last short rink. So 1st the dimensions are no longer as drastic. Some of the NHL vs. Olympic ice business has been around since the Soviets and eastern block were routinely crushing the US and Canada in hockey and those were still the 185x85 days.

Of the teams that get the top talent you noted:

Michigan - 200 X 85
North Dakota - 200 X 85
BC - 200 x 87
BU - 200 X 90
Minnesota - 200 X 100

So three are NHL or close to NHL, one is a hybrid, one is Olympic.

The ice size is not the factor in recruiting and clearly Minnesota plays a net front presence game with physicality so that isn't ice dependent either.

[C-H-C]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2014 Post-Season Thread: "Maybe Dick" Hunts the Great White Whale

Several of the recruits who I've interviewed over the last couple of years have mentioned the expanded size of the Whittemore Center ice surface as a reason they chose UNH. Those who have look forward to using the extra space to make plays. Of course, that is just one of the factors that entered into their decision to commit to UNH.

[Chuck Murray]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2014 Post-Season Thread: "Maybe Dick" Hunts the Great White Whale

It is not the size of the ice. This is a terrible excuse and it should not be allowed to continue.

I'm with you on that, JB. The only thing I will say counter to that point is that sometimes perception becomes reality, and while I've always thought the size of the ice argument was the lamest of lame excuses ... if some of your top level prospects are being advised that it's in their best interests to avoid the "big sheet" to enhance their NHL prospects, that can take on a life of its own, and narrow your available talent pool.

Having said that, I struggle to understand why an advisor/agent would advise a kid to get themselves clobbered in a smaller NHL-sized rink BEFORE they can cash in with a pro deal. As stated later in your post, and in my previous posts, the Olympic sized sheet doesn't seem to be doing any harm to Minnesota's program. Bottom line ... rink dimensions don't win games, players do. Watch the behaviors, not the surrounding conditions.

The old NHL rink size was 185 x 85 that has changed with all the new buildings. Currently NHL Ice is 200 X 85 (see NHL.com) it has been the last 15 years and believe the old garden was the last short rink. So 1st the dimensions are no longer as drastic. Some of the NHL vs. Olympic ice business has been around since the Soviets and eastern block were routinely crushing the US and Canada in hockey and those were still the 185x85 days.

The original Boston Garden and Chicago Stadium were the last two "short" rinks in the NHL, and if I remember correctly the "extra" 15 feet of rink length was added to the neutral zone in the current-sized rinks, and not in the attacking zones. Olympia Stadium (Detroit) had an unusual oval-styled shape in its corners (IIRC?) which someone compared to what Matthews Arena (Northeastern) looks like. Never made it to Olympia before it got torn down, so I can't vouch for that personally.

Interesting that you bring up the early Soviet/Euro clashes with NHL opposition. Looking back to the epic 8 game Canada vs. USSR series circa 1972, I'm pretty sure the Soviets went 2-1-1 in the smaller Canadian rinks (Montreal Forum, Maple Leaf Gardens, and the old Winnipeg and Vancouver arenas), but Canada went 3-1-0 at the larger surface in Moscow to edge the series. But frankly, I think (as in most instances) those results had more to do with things like motivation, overconfidence, conditioning, etc. than size of the surfaces.

Of the teams that get the top talent you noted:

Michigan - 200 X 85
North Dakota - 200 X 85
BC - 200 x 87
BU - 200 X 90
Minnesota - 200 X 100

So three are NHL or close to NHL, one is a hybrid, one is Olympic.

The ice size is not the factor in recruiting and clearly Minnesota plays a net front presence game with physicality so that isn't ice dependent either.

Couldn't agree more, JB. FWIW ... in the sport I coach, we play on all kinds of different sized fields, and also on different surfaces. We'll talk during preparations about some of those differences, but when the game starts, it's up to the players to perform. If they let any small differences distract them and affect the way they play, then shame on them. They're not focused, and they know I'm not going to tolerate excuses. Both teams are playing on the same field. If you play better than the other guys, you will usually win. If you're not focused and you/your players are whining about conditions, equipment, officiating calls, etc. ad nauseum, you will usually lose. I'm sure that applies at least equally to most other sports, especially including hockey.