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  • Re: Gophers 2013-14 B1G Things To Come!

    Originally posted by Go4PuckFan2.0 View Post
    Justin Bourne is a former UAA hockey player who writes a terrific hockey blog, Backhand Shelf

    Just a few months ago he wrote an interesting article on the differences between playing on an Olympic sized rink as opposed to an NHL sized rink.
    Linky here:

    http://blogs.thescore.com/nhl/2013/0...ed-ice-sheets/

    Enjoy!
    Interesting read, thanks for sharing.

    He makes a lot of observations that came up in our discussion, agreeing and disagreeing with points made on both sides. I think the biggest takeaway from the article is that changing the size of the sheet even by just 10-15 feet does make a noticeable change in the style of play.

    Comment


    • Re: Gophers 2013-14 B1G Things To Come!

      Originally posted by Go4PuckFan2.0 View Post
      Justin Bourne is a former UAA hockey player who writes a terrific hockey blog, Backhand Shelf

      Just a few months ago he wrote an interesting article on the differences between playing on an Olympic sized rink as opposed to an NHL sized rink.
      Linky here:

      http://blogs.thescore.com/nhl/2013/0...ed-ice-sheets/

      Enjoy!
      Thanks for the link. He pretty much reiterates the bulk of what I have been saying but does a better job of explaining it.
      University of Minnesota

      Twitter: Hammy Hockey

      Comment


      • Re: Gophers 2013-14 B1G Things To Come!

        Originally posted by Stauber1 View Post
        Interesting read, thanks for sharing.

        He makes a lot of observations that came up in our discussion, agreeing and disagreeing with points made on both sides. I think the biggest takeaway from the article is that changing the size of the sheet even by just 10-15 feet does make a noticeable change in the style of play.
        I have a friend who also played college hockey on an olympic sized rink for his home rink. He has some different conclusions than the above article. He is a strong proponent of moving the NHL to Olympic size and likes college on that size as well. (I read the link yesterday, and don't have time to re-read, but it seemed like a big part of his conclusion is that bigger ice makes for possession style of play, with less shots, which he finds boring. I think there are a number of factors that determine this (mainly the players you have and the coaches style). The Wild plays a possession style on small ice and the cheeseheads often play a trap on big ice. And the Gophs play on big ice and play a possession style which I find far from boring in most games. Not to mention, they usually do pretty well in the shot department, so I don't know that my observations support his conclusions. Players can and will make quick, tick-tack-toe passing plays on either size rink. They are effective and entertaining when executed well, so there is no reason they won't continue, no matter how large the rink. And fast teams won't succeed by just collapsing in their zone on defense, it negates one of their advantages. And it is more of an advantage to be fast on big ice.

        But with the way defensive systems have evolved, even since those 80's years, I would argue you see less room for the individual effort, the guy stickhandling through and around three guys to score. This is one play that improves on bigger ice. (And I'll acknowledge that this is not as big of an issue in college, where there is a greater discrepancy in skill from top line player to bottom then in NHL, but at the college level, that is where bigger ice starts to make sense to me.)

        And my buddy who played college hockey, played for a coach who embraced the olympic style of hockey at the time (80's) and I don't know how anyone could find that style of international play boring because it was on big ice. I found it immensely entertaining.

        Comment


        • Re: Gophers 2013-14 B1G Things To Come!

          Originally posted by Stauber1 View Post
          Interesting read, thanks for sharing.

          He makes a lot of observations that came up in our discussion, agreeing and disagreeing with points made on both sides. I think the biggest takeaway from the article is that changing the size of the sheet even by just 10-15 feet does make a noticeable change in the style of play.
          I have a friend who also played college hockey on an olympic sized rink for his home rink. He has some different conclusions than the above article. He is a strong proponent of moving the NHL to Olympic size and likes college on that size as well. (I read the link yesterday, and don't have time to re-read, but it seemed like a big part of his conclusion is that bigger ice makes for possession style of play, with less shots, which he finds boring. I think there are a number of factors that determine this (mainly the players you have and the coaches style). The Wild plays a possession style on small ice and the cheeseheads often play a trap on big ice. And the Gophs play on big ice and play a possession style which I find far from boring in most games. Not to mention, they usually do pretty well in the shot department, so I don't know that my observations support his conclusions. Players can and will make quick, tick-tack-toe passing plays on either size rink. They are effective and entertaining when executed well, so there is no reason they won't continue, no matter how large the rink. And fast teams won't succeed by just collapsing in their zone on defense, it negates one of their advantages. And it is more of an advantage to be fast on big ice.

          But with the way defensive systems have evolved, even since those 80's years, I would argue you see less room for the individual effort, the guy stickhandling through and around three guys to score. This is one play that improves on bigger ice. (And I'll acknowledge that this is not as big of an issue in college, where there is a greater discrepancy in skill from top line player to bottom then in NHL, but at the college level, that is where bigger ice starts to make sense to me.)

          And my buddy who played college hockey, played for a coach who embraced the olympic style of hockey at the time (80's) and I don't know how anyone could find that style of international play boring because it was on big ice. I found it immensely entertaining.

          Comment


          • Re: Gophers 2013-14 B1G Things To Come!

            Originally posted by Koho View Post
            I have a friend who also played college hockey on an olympic sized rink for his home rink. He has some different conclusions than the above article. He is a strong proponent of moving the NHL to Olympic size and likes college on that size as well. (I read the link yesterday, and don't have time to re-read, but it seemed like a big part of his conclusion is that bigger ice makes for possession style of play, with less shots, which he finds boring. I think there are a number of factors that determine this (mainly the players you have and the coaches style). The Wild plays a possession style on small ice and the cheeseheads often play a trap on big ice. And the Gophs play on big ice and play a possession style which I find far from boring in most games. Not to mention, they usually do pretty well in the shot department, so I don't know that my observations support his conclusions. Players can and will make quick, tick-tack-toe passing plays on either size rink. They are effective and entertaining when executed well, so there is no reason they won't continue, no matter how large the rink. And fast teams won't succeed by just collapsing in their zone on defense, it negates one of their advantages. And it is more of an advantage to be fast on big ice.

            But with the way defensive systems have evolved, even since those 80's years, I would argue you see less room for the individual effort, the guy stickhandling through and around three guys to score. This is one play that improves on bigger ice. (And I'll acknowledge that this is not as big of an issue in college, where there is a greater discrepancy in skill from top line player to bottom then in NHL, but at the college level, that is where bigger ice starts to make sense to me.)

            And my buddy who played college hockey, played for a coach who embraced the olympic style of hockey at the time (80's) and I don't know how anyone could find that style of international play boring because it was on big ice. I found it immensely entertaining.
            He didn't seem to be making any sort of statement on how entertaining/boring the game was on either surface, more just describing what he saw the differences to be.
            Some of his observations were definitely in contrast to what I and many people tend to think; like that you are rewarded more for speed on Olympic ice. Others were in agreement; like on smaller ice the game tends to be about putting the puck in a spot without much deliberation (systems), and on a bigger sheet you have a little more time to pick your head up, run through options and make decisions (creativity).

            But he also contradicts himself a bit, talking about how possession doesn't mean anything on its own, and then that you don't want to be out of possession because it's hell to get the puck back. He also says it's near impossible to play up-tempo on the Olympic sheet, and we all have seen some great up-tempo games not just at Mariucci (the Fri. BC game this year was probably the most up-tempo college game I have ever watched) but also in international play. Maybe for a team like Anchorage that was the case, though

            I certainly wouldn't take this blog post as gospel, but it's an interesting read and the main point is that the game does change to a degree when you change the width.

            There has seemed to be a tendency to exaggerate the position of those in favor of Olympic ice by saying they think that all games will by default turn into slow-paced, trapping snooze-fests. That's not what is being said. I certainly have been talking in terms of degree rather than absolutes, and to respond to Slap Shot I don't think anyone has been debating what the biggest factors are in dictating style of play.
            Recognizing that certain styles become more viable and certain player attributes become more or less valuable isn't saying that all games will be this way or that way, or that ice size is the most important variable in terms of how a game will be played.

            Comment


            • Re: Gophers 2013-14 B1G Things To Come!

              Seems like each week there are a few shifts where I get worried about how long Fasching is going to be around. Can someone update this lazy person on who drafted him and how they are sitting for young players and prospects ahead of him?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Koho View Post
                Seems like each week there are a few shifts where I get worried about how long Fasching is going to be around. Can someone update this lazy person on who drafted him and how they are sitting for young players and prospects ahead of him?
                LA Kings in 4th round. I think we'll have him at least next year, with 50/50 shot at him coming back for his junior year. We'll see.
                @MNState0fHockey on Twitter
                On the Web at www.mnhockeycentral.com
                High School, Gophers, and Wild News on Facebook at Minnesota Hockey Central

                Comment


                • Re: Gophers 2013-14 B1G Things To Come!

                  Originally posted by mnstate0fhockey View Post
                  LA Kings in 4th round. I think we'll have him at least next year, with 50/50 shot at him coming back for his junior year. We'll see.
                  Yeah, you never can predict who jumps and who stays. There are always some surprises. But with his reported love for playing for the Gophs and the fact that he doesn't seem ready this year, I wasn't expecting one and done. But coming in I was thinking at least three years from him, and now I'm not sure he's likely to stay beyond next year if he continues to improve.

                  Comment


                  • Re: Gophers 2013-14 B1G Things To Come!

                    (Not sure If I'll get the linking correct.)
                    Interesting article with Trent Klatt and Jake Bischoff talking about kids staying in HS rather than jumping early to Juniors.

                    http://www.letsplayhockey.com/online...-can-wait.html

                    Comment


                    • Re: Gophers 2013-14 B1G Things To Come!

                      The reality is there is no one "right answer" for whether a HS kid should stay or go to junior hockey before he graduates. Every kid has unique circumstances to consider. Some kids should go because the HS level simply does not offer enough of what they need (whether it is enough games, enough development opportunities, enough competitive teams on their schedule, or other variables). Other kids should stay for reasons like they are going to need to play a year or two of junior after HS anyway or maybe they just don't have the emotional maturity to leave home yet. There are lots of variables in play. I don't fault a kid for staying but I also don't fault a kid if he feels he needs to leave. I just wish some of these pro-HS people would get off their high horse and recognize that leaving doesn't mean a kid made the wrong decision. It is a case by case situation.
                      University of Minnesota

                      Twitter: Hammy Hockey

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Hammy View Post
                        The reality is there is no one "right answer" for whether a HS kid should stay or go to junior hockey before he graduates. Every kid has unique circumstances to consider. Some kids should go because the HS level simply does not offer enough of what they need (whether it is enough games, enough development opportunities, enough competitive teams on their schedule, or other variables). Other kids should stay for reasons like they are going to need to play a year or two of junior after HS anyway or maybe they just don't have the emotional maturity to leave home yet. There are lots of variables in play. I don't fault a kid for staying but I also don't fault a kid if he feels he needs to leave. I just wish some of these pro-HS people would get off their high horse and recognize that leaving doesn't mean a kid made the wrong decision. It is a case by case situation.
                        Well said.
                        @MNState0fHockey on Twitter
                        On the Web at www.mnhockeycentral.com
                        High School, Gophers, and Wild News on Facebook at Minnesota Hockey Central

                        Comment


                        • Re: Gophers 2013-14 B1G Things To Come!

                          Originally posted by Hammy View Post
                          The reality is there is no one "right answer" for whether a HS kid should stay or go to junior hockey before he graduates. Every kid has unique circumstances to consider. Some kids should go because the HS level simply does not offer enough of what they need (whether it is enough games, enough development opportunities, enough competitive teams on their schedule, or other variables). Other kids should stay for reasons like they are going to need to play a year or two of junior after HS anyway or maybe they just don't have the emotional maturity to leave home yet. There are lots of variables in play. I don't fault a kid for staying but I also don't fault a kid if he feels he needs to leave. I just wish some of these pro-HS people would get off their high horse and recognize that leaving doesn't mean a kid made the wrong decision. It is a case by case situation.
                          I don't think the gist was everyone HAS to stay in HS. But they offer many reasons for staying in HS. Trent starts off by saying outside MN, a lot of players don't have the opportunity to play at the level that MN players do so it makes more sense for them to leave early. I don't think he would say a kid at a non-hockey power with weak competition in MN has to stay. But he is pointing out advantages of staying, playing other sports, having family connection, etc. for those kids who are at hockey powers getting plenty of experience who think the only path is to leave. We've all seen kids leave HS early who probably didn't benefit and might have benefited from an article like this. And kids like Bischoff are evidence that staying in HS doesn't necessarily hurt. I like the view the article offers. the little bit I am exposed to it, the pressure to leave often seems greater than to stay.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Koho View Post
                            I don't think the gist was everyone HAS to stay in HS. But they offer many reasons for staying in HS. Trent starts off by saying outside MN, a lot of players don't have the opportunity to play at the level that MN players do so it makes more sense for them to leave early. I don't think he would say a kid at a non-hockey power with weak competition in MN has to stay. But he is pointing out advantages of staying, playing other sports, having family connection, etc. for those kids who are at hockey powers getting plenty of experience who think the only path is to leave. We've all seen kids leave HS early who probably didn't benefit and might have benefited from an article like this. And kids like Bischoff are evidence that staying in HS doesn't necessarily hurt. I like the view the article offers. the little bit I am exposed to it, the pressure to leave often seems greater than to stay.
                            Rogers HS comes to mind. They've lost a few fairly highly regarded players recently, and elected to move up to Class AA this season. Their schedule this year looks far more challenging than it has in the past. I'm sure one of the bigger drivers for opting up to Class AA was to try and make their schedule more competitive in order to retain some of the talent they have been losing.

                            So I agree with both of you
                            @MNState0fHockey on Twitter
                            On the Web at www.mnhockeycentral.com
                            High School, Gophers, and Wild News on Facebook at Minnesota Hockey Central

                            Comment


                            • Re: Gophers 2013-14 B1G Things To Come!

                              Originally posted by Koho View Post
                              I don't think the gist was everyone HAS to stay in HS. But they offer many reasons for staying in HS. Trent starts off by saying outside MN, a lot of players don't have the opportunity to play at the level that MN players do so it makes more sense for them to leave early. I don't think he would say a kid at a non-hockey power with weak competition in MN has to stay. But he is pointing out advantages of staying, playing other sports, having family connection, etc. for those kids who are at hockey powers getting plenty of experience who think the only path is to leave. We've all seen kids leave HS early who probably didn't benefit and might have benefited from an article like this. And kids like Bischoff are evidence that staying in HS doesn't necessarily hurt. I like the view the article offers. the little bit I am exposed to it, the pressure to leave often seems greater than to stay.
                              There is quite a bit of pressure put on kids to stay too. It's not one way. Believe me, I've seen it. You'd think they were suddenly Edward Snowden for even considering it.

                              My remarks on it were not aimed at Klatt as much as the pro-HS crowd as a whole. But if you go back and read the article more closely, it does say he believes kids should stay. "Klatt has come to the conclusion that players should stay and play in high school rather than moving up early." He doesn't give any other side to why it may be a valid reason to leave. Which is essentially the same crap that pro-HS people tend to spew. As if there aren't very good reasons for a kid to leave too. These people just seem incapable of seeing there is more than one answer and it is a case by case thing. IMO, some of this thinking actually holds back MN players. Not helps them.

                              I would also say that while I agree that you don't want to specialize on one sport too soon and should develop well rounded athletic abilities, I think using it as a reason for not leaving for juniors is misleading. Let's be honest... one more year of baseball as a senior (or some other sport) isn't going to magically make your athletic abilities significantly better. Those are skills built up over many years of playing sports. I don't think bailing on other sports one year early to focus on the sport you will be playing in college is going to have a negative impact.
                              Last edited by Hammy; 11-23-2013, 05:42 PM.
                              University of Minnesota

                              Twitter: Hammy Hockey

                              Comment


                              • Re: Gophers 2013-14 B1G Things To Come!

                                I make no attempts to hide the fact that I'm pretty pro high school, but I also recognize that a lot of that is for selfish reasons. I want to see these kids play in high school, and see MNHS hockey stay strong. In the end I almost always understand why kids make the decisions they do about leaving to play juniors though. The landscape of hockey isn't the same as it was 10-20 years ago, no matter how much some of us (raises hand) wish it would have stayed the same forever. Just have to enjoy seeing kids play in MNHS hockey as long as we can, then wish them the best.
                                @MNState0fHockey on Twitter
                                On the Web at www.mnhockeycentral.com
                                High School, Gophers, and Wild News on Facebook at Minnesota Hockey Central

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