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mnstate0fhockey
11-23-2013, 04:38 PM
The reality is there is no one "right answer" for whether a HS kid should stay or go to junior hockey before he graduates. Every kid has unique circumstances to consider. Some kids should go because the HS level simply does not offer enough of what they need (whether it is enough games, enough development opportunities, enough competitive teams on their schedule, or other variables). Other kids should stay for reasons like they are going to need to play a year or two of junior after HS anyway or maybe they just don't have the emotional maturity to leave home yet. There are lots of variables in play. I don't fault a kid for staying but I also don't fault a kid if he feels he needs to leave. I just wish some of these pro-HS people would get off their high horse and recognize that leaving doesn't mean a kid made the wrong decision. It is a case by case situation.

Well said.

Koho
11-23-2013, 04:39 PM
The reality is there is no one "right answer" for whether a HS kid should stay or go to junior hockey before he graduates. Every kid has unique circumstances to consider. Some kids should go because the HS level simply does not offer enough of what they need (whether it is enough games, enough development opportunities, enough competitive teams on their schedule, or other variables). Other kids should stay for reasons like they are going to need to play a year or two of junior after HS anyway or maybe they just don't have the emotional maturity to leave home yet. There are lots of variables in play. I don't fault a kid for staying but I also don't fault a kid if he feels he needs to leave. I just wish some of these pro-HS people would get off their high horse and recognize that leaving doesn't mean a kid made the wrong decision. It is a case by case situation.

I don't think the gist was everyone HAS to stay in HS. But they offer many reasons for staying in HS. Trent starts off by saying outside MN, a lot of players don't have the opportunity to play at the level that MN players do so it makes more sense for them to leave early. I don't think he would say a kid at a non-hockey power with weak competition in MN has to stay. But he is pointing out advantages of staying, playing other sports, having family connection, etc. for those kids who are at hockey powers getting plenty of experience who think the only path is to leave. We've all seen kids leave HS early who probably didn't benefit and might have benefited from an article like this. And kids like Bischoff are evidence that staying in HS doesn't necessarily hurt. I like the view the article offers. the little bit I am exposed to it, the pressure to leave often seems greater than to stay.

mnstate0fhockey
11-23-2013, 05:07 PM
I don't think the gist was everyone HAS to stay in HS. But they offer many reasons for staying in HS. Trent starts off by saying outside MN, a lot of players don't have the opportunity to play at the level that MN players do so it makes more sense for them to leave early. I don't think he would say a kid at a non-hockey power with weak competition in MN has to stay. But he is pointing out advantages of staying, playing other sports, having family connection, etc. for those kids who are at hockey powers getting plenty of experience who think the only path is to leave. We've all seen kids leave HS early who probably didn't benefit and might have benefited from an article like this. And kids like Bischoff are evidence that staying in HS doesn't necessarily hurt. I like the view the article offers. the little bit I am exposed to it, the pressure to leave often seems greater than to stay.

Rogers HS comes to mind. They've lost a few fairly highly regarded players recently, and elected to move up to Class AA this season. Their schedule this year looks far more challenging than it has in the past. I'm sure one of the bigger drivers for opting up to Class AA was to try and make their schedule more competitive in order to retain some of the talent they have been losing.

So I agree with both of you :)

Hammy
11-23-2013, 05:39 PM
I don't think the gist was everyone HAS to stay in HS. But they offer many reasons for staying in HS. Trent starts off by saying outside MN, a lot of players don't have the opportunity to play at the level that MN players do so it makes more sense for them to leave early. I don't think he would say a kid at a non-hockey power with weak competition in MN has to stay. But he is pointing out advantages of staying, playing other sports, having family connection, etc. for those kids who are at hockey powers getting plenty of experience who think the only path is to leave. We've all seen kids leave HS early who probably didn't benefit and might have benefited from an article like this. And kids like Bischoff are evidence that staying in HS doesn't necessarily hurt. I like the view the article offers. the little bit I am exposed to it, the pressure to leave often seems greater than to stay.

There is quite a bit of pressure put on kids to stay too. It's not one way. Believe me, I've seen it. You'd think they were suddenly Edward Snowden for even considering it.

My remarks on it were not aimed at Klatt as much as the pro-HS crowd as a whole. But if you go back and read the article more closely, it does say he believes kids should stay. "Klatt has come to the conclusion that players should stay and play in high school rather than moving up early." He doesn't give any other side to why it may be a valid reason to leave. Which is essentially the same crap that pro-HS people tend to spew. As if there aren't very good reasons for a kid to leave too. These people just seem incapable of seeing there is more than one answer and it is a case by case thing. IMO, some of this thinking actually holds back MN players. Not helps them.

I would also say that while I agree that you don't want to specialize on one sport too soon and should develop well rounded athletic abilities, I think using it as a reason for not leaving for juniors is misleading. Let's be honest... one more year of baseball as a senior (or some other sport) isn't going to magically make your athletic abilities significantly better. Those are skills built up over many years of playing sports. I don't think bailing on other sports one year early to focus on the sport you will be playing in college is going to have a negative impact.

mnstate0fhockey
11-23-2013, 05:49 PM
I make no attempts to hide the fact that I'm pretty pro high school, but I also recognize that a lot of that is for selfish reasons. I want to see these kids play in high school, and see MNHS hockey stay strong. In the end I almost always understand why kids make the decisions they do about leaving to play juniors though. The landscape of hockey isn't the same as it was 10-20 years ago, no matter how much some of us (raises hand) wish it would have stayed the same forever. Just have to enjoy seeing kids play in MNHS hockey as long as we can, then wish them the best.

Koho
11-23-2013, 09:31 PM
There is quite a bit of pressure put on kids to stay too. It's not one way. Believe me, I've seen it. You'd think they were suddenly Edward Snowden for even considering it.

My remarks on it were not aimed at Klatt as much as the pro-HS crowd as a whole. But if you go back and read the article more closely, it does say he believes kids should stay. "Klatt has come to the conclusion that players should stay and play in high school rather than moving up early." He doesn't give any other side to why it may be a valid reason to leave. Which is essentially the same crap that pro-HS people tend to spew. As if there aren't very good reasons for a kid to leave too. These people just seem incapable of seeing there is more than one answer and it is a case by case thing. IMO, some of this thinking actually holds back MN players. Not helps them.

I would also say that while I agree that you don't want to specialize on one sport too soon and should develop well rounded athletic abilities, I think using it as a reason for not leaving for juniors is misleading. Let's be honest... one more year of baseball as a senior (or some other sport) isn't going to magically make your athletic abilities significantly better. Those are skills built up over many years of playing sports. I don't think bailing on other sports one year early to focus on the sport you will be playing in college is going to have a negative impact.

1. From my experience, news stories are almost never 100% correct in their interpretation and representation of people they are quoting/paraphrasing. So taking one line out with the authors' interpretation of Trent's position doesn't convince me he is all or nothing.
2. And I don't think most are necessarily arguing for all one way or another. I think even most people recognize there are cases to be made for kids who left early who might have been better off staying and and some who clearly are in a position in HS they won't get the competition they could benefit from. In the case of Pro-Staying-in-HS crowd, a lot I know don't say no one should go, just that less pressure should be put on these kids at such a young age, when many of them will give up their last years of HS to never end up as a Pro.
3. I realize there is pressure to stay. I have seen it too. But I don't see that pressure as being a worse situation than the pressure to leave, which might not have been your intent, but seems to be your implication.
4. I will admit I am biased towards kids staying because I like HS hockey. When you are a very good player on a team on a perennial power, playing a tough schedule (Edina, Hill Murray, Duluth East, etc) I think in most cases you are not gaining a lot over what you are losing. If you are in bumbleFk, MN and better than everyone in the conference, or if you are the next coming of Sid the Kid playing anywhere, then move on.

A couple examples of things that should enter into the discussion:
1. Players who have left early and and it didn't pan out. One of the reasons for my leaniong towards kids staying was what I saw with one very talented kid in a hurry to move on. There was a Sophomore in my town who I thought was as good a player as the MR Hockey Senior on the team. He left his Junior year for Canada, a little undersized for the rough league. A few concussions later, he's out of hockey. Might have got concussions in HS too, but probably less likely.
2. Not that this can be put on the individual player trying to decide his future, but you must acknowledge the fear of some about the deterioration of HS hockey if the trend of better players leaving early grows. Part of what makes little kids want to play hockey in a lot of small towns in MN is seeing their HS team do well, and maybe make the tourney. The little kids look up to those star players in the tourney, admire them and want to emulate them. There are a lot of sports competing for these kids now compared to 20 years ago. If the stars keep leaving and the quality deteriorates, will as many kids be recruited to the sport in the future in MN? (I'll admit I didn't buy this when I first heard it, but as I've thought about it, it think it might have some merit. Problem is, even if it is valid, you can't expect a kid to stay 'for the good of future hockey in MN'.)

I guess after all this ranting and raving (alcohol hasn't helped clear my thought process), the point is, with the acknowledged pressure to move on early, what is so wrong with an article pointing out the benefits of staying? What is the harm in a guy who has been through what Klatt has saying that being with family and friends a little longer is a good thing too?

Hammy
11-23-2013, 10:39 PM
1. From my experience, news stories are almost never 100% correct in their interpretation and representation of people they are quoting/paraphrasing. So taking one line out with the authors' interpretation of Trent's position doesn't convince me he is all or nothing.

Could be I am giving Let's Play Hockey more credit than it deserves. However, it was rather clear that he wasn't advocating anything other than staying. I think it is far fetched to read that and act like it is otherwise. I'm not trying to convince you of anything. But I think it is clear what the intent of the comments were.


2. And I don't think most are necessarily arguing for all one way or another. I think even most people recognize there are cases to be made for kids who left early who might have been better off staying and and some who clearly are in a position in HS they won't get the competition they could benefit from. In the case of Pro-Staying-in-HS crowd, a lot I know don't say no one should go, just that less pressure should be put on these kids at such a young age, when many of them will give up their last years of HS to never end up as a Pro.

Maybe I have just seen too many of the inane comments on the HS Hockey message board that seem to think staying is the only viable/worthy decision and that skews things in my mind. But this state is known for its attitude on hockey as if we have all the "right answers" so I tend to be a little more critical of those here who seem to espouse a one side fits all attitude.


3. I realize there is pressure to stay. I have seen it too. But I don't see that pressure as being a worse situation than the pressure to leave, which might not have been your intent, but seems to be your implication.

In my experience, the pressure to stay is probably more intense for some kids. Particularly in small towns where one player can make or break a team.


4. I will admit I am biased towards kids staying because I like HS hockey. When you are a very good player on a team on a perennial power, playing a tough schedule (Edina, Hill Murray, Duluth East, etc) I think in most cases you are not gaining a lot over what you are losing. If you are in bumbleFk, MN and better than everyone in the conference, or if you are the next coming of Sid the Kid playing anywhere, then move on.

I don't entirely disagree. It is about each kid's circumstances. Though I don't think it is cut and dry for SW burbs kids either.

Sometimes it comes down to whether a kid wants to play college hockey ASAP. Most college coaches are going to tell a kid they can come in after they play a year of junior hockey. It is just up to the kid when he wants to play that year of juniors (his senior year or a post-HS year). If a kid doesn't want to be patient, I can't fault him.


1. Players who have left early and and it didn't pan out. One of the reasons for my leaniong towards kids staying was what I saw with one very talented kid in a hurry to move on. There was a Sophomore in my town who I thought was as good a player as the MR Hockey Senior on the team. He left his Junior year for Canada, a little undersized for the rough league. A few concussions later, he's out of hockey. Might have got concussions in HS too, but probably less likely.

I don't really advocate kids leaving their soph year. Maybe not even their junior year unless they are truly special cases (or if a chance to play in the US program is there). But seniors? I think a lot of them have pretty valid reasons to go. I wouldn't argue against your situation above in the case of a soph.


2. Not that this can be put on the individual player trying to decide his future, but you must acknowledge the fear of some about the deterioration of HS hockey if the trend of better players leaving early grows. Part of what makes little kids want to play hockey in a lot of small towns in MN is seeing their HS team do well, and maybe make the tourney. The little kids look up to those star players in the tourney, admire them and want to emulate them. There are a lot of sports competing for these kids now compared to 20 years ago. If the stars keep leaving and the quality deteriorates, will as many kids be recruited to the sport in the future in MN? (I'll admit I didn't buy this when I first heard it, but as I've thought about it, it think it might have some merit. Problem is, even if it is valid, you can't expect a kid to stay 'for the good of future hockey in MN'.)

I find this to be a stretch. First of all, small town schools still make the tourney with or without some guys leaving for juniors. It may be a different team that makes it due to some other team losing a star... but some of the sections are still made up of mainly small schools. Especially in Class A. Not to mention, there are a lot of motivational factors for what drives a kid's interest in a sport. Personally, I never worshiped any HS player when I was a youth player. My interest was always in the Gophers and the North Stars. When I was shooting pucks or skating at the local outdoor rink, I never did the little imagination game of acting like the local HS star scoring the winning goal. I dreamed of scoring goals like Dino Ciccarelli. With the strong presence of amateur and pro hockey here, I don't buy losing a handful of HS kids early is going to damage the grassroots. That sounds like overreacting scare tactics.

mnstate0fhockey
11-23-2013, 11:43 PM
Not taking sides in this, but as to the discussion of whom kids grow up pretending to be on rinks....


For the players it is at least that. A few years ago a hockey columnist quoted former University of Minnesota and U.S. Olympic coach Herb Brooks as saying that winning a state championship for St. Paul's Johnson High in 1955 was one of the best moments of his career. Upon reading it, Brooks called the writer and claimed he had been misquoted. Brooks said it was the best moment, better than coaching the Miracle on Ice team in the 1980 Winter Olympics. (Appropriately, this year's tournament served as an extended tribute to Brooks, who died last August in a car accident near Minneapolis.)

The majority of participants will not play hockey beyond high school, so for a player like Ben Ollila, a 5'8" (in skates) forward for Centennial High in Circle Pines, "this is what I have been dreaming about since I was seven. When I was little, I would go out on the ice and pretend I was the guys I watched in the state tournament, guys like Johnny Pohl [Minnesota's Mr. Hockey in 1998]," says Ollila. "Kids who are watching this year will one day pretend they are Tom Gorowsky [Centennial's star forward and this year's Mr. Hockey."


<a href="http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/magazine/features/si50/states/minnesota/story/">LINK</a>

Not every Minnesota hockey fan feels the same way about MNHS Hockey, but some people really get into it beyond just the enjoyment of watching the games. I enjoy following high school hockey about as much as I do the Gophers, enjoy seeing my alma mater do well, etc.... I see both sides to this discussion and have really made an effort in recent years to try and accept the changes we've seen with departures, etc... Some of the reactions out there are probably overreaction because of fear of change and concern about the health of MNHS Hockey, but I think a majority of people understand that change is inevitable and that it is in the best interest of some kids to move on.

Koho
11-23-2013, 11:53 PM
I find this to be a stretch. First of all, small town schools still make the tourney with or without some guys leaving for juniors. It may be a different team that makes it due to some other team losing a star... but some of the sections are still made up of mainly small schools. Especially in Class A. Not to mention, there are a lot of motivational factors for what drives a kid's interest in a sport. Personally, I never worshiped any HS player when I was a youth player. My interest was always in the Gophers and the North Stars. When I was shooting pucks or skating at the local outdoor rink, I never did the little imagination game of acting like the local HS star scoring the winning goal. I dreamed of scoring goals like Dino Ciccarelli. With the strong presence of amateur and pro hockey here, I don't buy losing a handful of HS kids early is going to damage the grassroots. That sounds like overreacting scare tactics.

I am not going to rehash everything, just say that while it may not be that kids idolize a specific HS player, but when a team from a smaller town makes the tourney and the whole town is buzzing about it, there is typically a surge in the number of kids starting hockey the next year. And with these small town teams, it is often one or two players that make the difference of them making the tourney. That kid leaves a year early and they might not make it. And I can say, when growing up in the Cities, seeing my future HS team in the tourney definitely got me fired up, so it isn't just in small towns. And I guess I wasn't clear, that if the quality of the Tourney declines because there are less Blue ribbon players in it in the future, it could loose some luster to the young kids. Yeah, the trend will have to continue to the point that more kids are leaving early than there are now, before we see a perceptible drop in the quality of HS hockey. And I don't know there is room for that many kids to jump. But I do understand the argument.

Hammy
11-24-2013, 12:43 AM
And as I said... small town teams generally play in the same sections. One small town loses out because a star leaves, another small town benefits from it.

As for the state tourney, I think it has lost some luster as it is. It's not like it was 20 or 30 years ago when I was growing up and attending. Some of it is due to the classes breaking up, etc.

As for the players leaving... I don't think we'll see it go backward to how it was. The cat is out of the bag. The Mr. Hockey situation is going to be very weak this year compared to what it could have been.

I don't have issues with a kid staying in HS. Whatever is best for that individual kid in his circumstances (with guidance from his parents and whoever else he trusts). But I think there are a number of cases where a kid is better off moving on. I just don't like the absolutes that talk like one way always trumps the other.

mnstate0fhockey
11-24-2013, 12:52 AM
As for the state tourney, I think it has lost some luster as it is. It's not like it was 20 or 30 years ago when I was growing up and attending. Some of it is due to the classes breaking up, etc.

As for the players leaving... I don't think we'll see it go backward to how it was. The cat is out of the bag. The Mr. Hockey situation is going to be very weak this year compared to what it could have been.


Lots of truth to all of this :(

D2D
11-24-2013, 01:30 AM
Have to disagree a little bit. I happened to watch the Edina/Wayzata game on TV tonight, pitting the No. 2 vs. No. 1 ranked teams in LPH. I thought the quality of play was excellent, particularly that of Edina who won the game 3-1. Not sure how many guys might have left these teams early to play juniors, but if there were some you would never know it - great hockey, especially this early in the season.

mnstate0fhockey
11-24-2013, 06:59 AM
Have to disagree a little bit. I happened to watch the Edina/Wayzata game on TV tonight, pitting the No. 2 vs. No. 1 ranked teams in LPH. I thought the quality of play was excellent, particularly that of Edina who won the game 3-1. Not sure how many guys might have left these teams early to play juniors, but if there were some you would never know it - great hockey, especially this early in the season.

Absolutely, there is still some great talent in MNHS Hockey, and this season will be a blast, but consider the Mr Hockey race if the following players were still in MNHS Hockey: Jack Ramsey, Karson Kuhlman, Austin Poganski, Connor Hurley, Teemu Kivihalme, Jack Dougherty, Neal Pionk, Tyler Sheehy.

Here is a full list of early departures, to my knowledge: Jesse Gabriel, Jared Mickelson, Shane Gersich, David Brumm, Dylan Michaud, Mike Sauer, Drake Stimpson, Aaron Herdt, Westin Michaud, Jack Ramsey, Karson Kuhlman, Austin Poganski, Connor Hurley, Hayden Shaw, Nick Heid, Cosimo Yapello, Michael Bigelbach, Matt Brettingen, Brandon Smith, Logan Von Ruden, Alex Fredberg, Hunter Warner, Teemu Kivihalme, Jack Dougherty, Blake Hillman, Neal Pionk, Darion Hanson, Jake Kielly, George McLeod, Chase Perry, and Tyler Sheehy.

That's a lot of talent that left early. It's not the end of the World. There will still be plenty of talent in MNHS hockey. Rosters are just getting younger. Kinda similar to what we're seeing with college hockey. More top college players are leaving early to play professionally than they did 20 years ago. That hasn't ruined college hockey, but it did change college hockey.

People, like myself, are just going to need to accept the changes. Like Hammy said, it isn't going to change back.

D2D
11-24-2013, 10:53 AM
There will still be plenty of talent in MNHS hockey. Rosters are just getting younger. Kinda similar to what we're seeing with college hockey. More top college players are leaving early to play professionally than they did 20 years ago. That hasn't ruined college hockey, but it did change college hockey.

Of course the amount of money involved has grown so large that it's influencing more and more players to move to the next level at younger ages. College scholarships are worth well into six figures at almost all schools, and at some schools that's just two years worth now. That's plenty to entice many aspiring players to skip one or more years of their high school eligibility. In the process they're leaving their family, their buddies and for some their girlfriends behind, to go live with a strange family and try to build new relationships as advancing their development as hockey players becomes the primary motivation. For most it's first getting that college scholarship, and if things go according to plan there's a better chance of some day making an NHL roster and pulling in the really big bucks.

Most of us don't have a problem with this, as we admire those who dedicate themselves to becoming better at whatever they decide to do and follow whatever path they come to believe will better enable them to achieve their goals. You only hope that each individual makes these important decisions after giving them plenty of thought and carefully weighing all of their options. I believe that for most that will continue to mean staying in school, living with their families and delaying their decision to play a year or two of junior hockey until after they complete their high school eligibility.

Hammy
11-24-2013, 01:03 PM
Have to disagree a little bit. I happened to watch the Edina/Wayzata game on TV tonight, pitting the No. 2 vs. No. 1 ranked teams in LPH. I thought the quality of play was excellent, particularly that of Edina who won the game 3-1. Not sure how many guys might have left these teams early to play juniors, but if there were some you would never know it - great hockey, especially this early in the season.

Disagree with what? Nobody said there weren't good players or good teams left. If anything, we still see plenty of sophs and juniors that are good players in HS hockey. It is whether many of the best stick around as seniors that is the big question. This year had a number of high profile players that would have been seniors that are playing elsewhere.

Wisko McBadgerton
11-24-2013, 01:19 PM
Sorry to interrupt, but if any generous Gopher fan could perhaps offer this new guy a helping hand (http://board.uscho.com/showthread.php?106436-Wisconsin-Hockey-Vol-XXVIII-This-could-be-a-banner-year-but-how-would-we-know&p=5820620#post5820620) I'm sure it would be appreciated. (Who knows, maybe even a can of thinner in it for ya'.)

Thanks. Carry on.

4four4
11-24-2013, 04:53 PM
Not every Minnesota hockey fan feels the same way about MNHS Hockey, but some people really get into it beyond just the enjoyment of watching the games.

I have found the people who don't follow high school hockey tend to be from schools without high school hockey tradition.

mnstate0fhockey
11-24-2013, 06:28 PM
I have found the people who don't follow high school hockey tend to be from schools without high school hockey tradition.

Well, I'm from EP and our only tradition when I was there was to get spanked by anyone and everyone on an annual basis. :)

Koho
11-24-2013, 09:48 PM
Well, I'm from EP and our only tradition when I was there was to get spanked by anyone and everyone on an annual basis. :)

This is a HOCKEY board. Keep it clean.

mnstate0fhockey
11-24-2013, 09:52 PM
This is a HOCKEY board. Keep it clean.

hahaha :p:)