UNH Wildcats 2012-2013 Postseason Thread

[JB]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2012-2013 Postseason Thread

The difference in this facility "argument" is odd, UNH is not substandard. The Whitt is a nice place. Is it brand new? No. But it isn't that high school rink that Merrimack played (plays) in. It is a 20 year old building so it isn't as nice as the brand new ones but it is far from a dump. Is it easier is a brand new building? Sure. If UNH had actually won something (that big wooden thing) between 1998 and 2004 some rich alumni might freshen up the place. Heck if I was rich I would do it.

The admissions thing is interesting on the specific language requirement. It explains some of the problems. First it highlights where the adjustment had to be made, so there would have been a clearly frustrating transition where recruits got excluded at the end. The story about John Gaudreau is also frustrating, maybe he doesn’t go to UNH in the end anyway but to not even look at the application is irritating when BC clearly did.

Chuck, Yale is not a fair comparison. If a player is smart enough to get into Yale and play hockey are they coming to UNH? I would think they would head Ivy League more often than not. So while the education isn’t a “barrier” it is still a problem. While a good school UNH shouldn’t be pushed up against Yale and Harvard for players. I got into “better” schools but UNH was the right fit for me, that isn’t always the case.

It would be interesting to understand the admissions foreign language requirement at all the different schools. Does BC require 2 years or is 1 good enough? How about Yale, Harvard, Michigan, Cornell is 1 year foreign language good enough? Or do they prefer 2 year but other skills (like athletic ability) make it a soft requirement. If 45 of the schools only require 1 year as the hard requirement that is now a problem. That is the sort of data as a coach I would collect and go to the admin to get it “fixed”. Without the data in hand your just whining and nobody likes listening to a whiner.

P.S. Josh happy you were not a victim in that senseless act.

[Dan]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2012-2013 Postseason Thread

Of course top facilities can help land top recruits, but I hate to hear that used as an excuse at UNH. They may not be the best in college hockey, but they are a lot closer to the top than the bottom. The Whitt is a great building and I'd have to think most recruits come away awfully impressed with the building. There are a lot of different reasons players choose different schools and its the coach's job to sell recruits individually.

I went to Miami. The old Goggin was a dump. When I was there Miami had everything but the facility. The new Goggin is beautiful and certainly a huge part of Miami's recent success. But as Chuck points out - it was a HUGE jump and that's why the impact is so noticeable.

I had heard from a family member, who used to work in admissions, about the foreign language requirement. It was certainly a frustrating development over the last few seasons. Still, if handled correctly shouldn't be an issue going forward. I hope UNH coaches are pro-actively telling any young player, at any age, who shows an interest in UNH that two years is absolute requirement. With early recruiting in this day in age, it should be easy to get out in front of this issue.

[Scott]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2012-2013 Postseason Thread

What's the difference between key and MAJOR? This sounds similar to UNH is doing an excellent job recuriting but needs tangible change.

Josh Ciocco:
It is my opinion that (Scott Borek) has done an excellent job of keeping UNH stocked with talent. Since his arrival UNH has only missed the NCAA tournament 1 year. To have the talent capable of making the NCAA tournament on an annual basis is very impressive.

Josh Ciocco:
First, UNH needs tangible change.

It seems to me you're trying to have it both ways in this discussion. I get it that you're trying to have a career in hockey but you can either play your cards right with the people in the business or you can give us an honest assessment of the situation, but you're clearly having a hard time doing both.

Ehhh????!!! En Francais, si vouz plait!

[Scott]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2012-2013 Postseason Thread

I'm also enlightened by the two-year foreign language that UNH Admissions requires....but it surprises me that schools with high academic standards (like PC) do not have this requirement?

In my opinion, the jury is still out on the "McCloskey vs Borek" argument. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it Borek who landed JVR, for example? I think that McCloskey was in the right place at the right time, the UNH program being on the upswing in a brand new state-of-the-art (at that time) facility, and a fertile bed of strong recruits to sell the program to. Who knows what the future would have brought had he stayed on as a Mens Associate Head Coach?

The "tangible" change that I would like to see is a UNH Admissions office working with, rather than against the UNH Athletic department.

[Greg Ambrose]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2012-2013 Postseason Thread

Just a few thoughts on the recent topic:
First, as Crazed points out, kids love stuff. Superficial perhaps to me and Chuck M. but, let's face it, kids are impressed with the baubles. The Whit was state of the art when it opened in 1995. It is not now. The place needs a cleaning first of all. It doesn't have an in-building weight room, and it doesn't have a player's lounge. I'd be willing to bet that BU, BC, Quinnipiac, never mind the Big Ten schools have that stuff. True, Merrimack doesn't have these things, but last time I checked we are not supposed to be competing with Merrimack for players, we are supposed to be competing with the big boys. Now, can UNH afford those amenities either publicly funded (absolutely not!) or privately (doubtful)? So we have to live with the fact that and play up other factors.

Second issue is admissions. As Josh C has pointed out, times have changed over at T Hall. Players that graced our ice even 5 years ago could not get into the school now. Josh mentioned Sean Collins. I'll concede that without the building he might have not come to UNH (although I heard that when Caron signed he decided to follow suit). But if he also had to clear the current admission hurdle, he might not have even been recruited. Same goes with Mowers, Krog, Bekar, Conklin and a boatload of others. Somehow, some way, there has to be a meeting of the minds between the administration, admissions and the athletic department about what direction UNH athletics is headed. Does the school truly want to compete at a high level in their signature sport? If they do, then the noose has to be loosened in the admissions department. See the next paragraph as an example.

Chuck cited Yale on this score saying, if Yale can compete with their standards, then UNH can as well, or so he implies. Moving beyond the obvious that UNH isn't Yale, please be aware that the ivies are not above fudging a bit to keep some of their programs competitive. I know I read a couple of years ago in the NY Times that the Ivies have some sort of scoring system which the schools are allowed to bypass when it comes to athletics. Something along the lines of allowing a certain percentage of incoming freshmen to fall below the minimum allowable. Can't do it for all teams, but for some. I remember reading how coaches of a particular sport at one school were miffed that they couldn't get kids in but that they were accepted at other Ivies. It appears that the rule is used for different sports at different schools, so you have Yale using it for hockey while Harvard uses it for hoops (god knows what Columbia uses it for).

The last factor is, of course, the coaching. Whenever I think about coaches and managers I am always reminded of my Dad's comment about Casey Stengel, that he knew him before and after he was a great manager. I suppose there are some here who don't even know who the he!! Casey was. But in my youth he was the manager of all those Mickey Mantle, Yogi Berra led Yankee teams that won pennants and World Series during the 50's. However, before he managed the Yanks, he led the old Boston Braves to multiple cellar dwelling finishes and, after he was bounced by the Bombers, he was the manager of the hapless Mets of 1962. The point of all this is that you have to have the players in order to have a chance to be great. Having them doesn't guaranteed success (just ask North Dakota fans their opinion of Hakstol), but you basically have no chance if you are bumbling along year after year.

There is no question that UNH can do better in the recruiting wars, but only if everybody is on the same page. Money for building improvements is not going to happen now, period. But it doesn't take money to tweak admissions standards, it only takes some sensible talk by all parties and enough guts to take some action. It really comes down to this. Does UNH want to field a team that can compete at the highest level or does it not? And if they do, what can the administration do to achieve that goal?

One last thing. Umile will be 65 in December. Let's say he retires within the next three years. If things stay as they are, what high powered coach (a Gwozdecky type) would even entertain the thought of taking the job given UNH's current financial state and admissions policy? If you want to find the answer, watch how things play out at Maine over the next few weeks.

[irishfan85]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2012-2013 Postseason Thread

Merrimack has a players lounge and is building a bigger better weight room in arena this summer...

[Aerman]

Chuck, Yale is not a fair comparison. If a player is smart enough to get into Yale and play hockey are they coming to UNH?.

Ed Caron

[QUAlum2004]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2012-2013 Postseason Thread

I have a question for the UNH people. How much does having the Whittemore Center on Olympic size ice hurt recruiting along with a dated building that needs updating?

[WildShawn]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2012-2013 Postseason Thread

Merrimack has a players lounge and is building a bigger better weight room in arena this summer...

coughcoughLipstickonapigcoughcough

[Josh Ciocco]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2012-2013 Postseason Thread

When I brought up the facilities it was not intended to make an "excuse" for anything. What I was stating is that the Whittemore Center is no longer an "advantage" in recruiting like it was from 1996-2005. This makes the job of recruiting more challenging. I think the Whit is a fantastic buiding to play in. Me personally, I didnt really care about the bells and whistles, I was more focused on the atmosphere and thats why I chose UNH. Every kid is different. I was asked to prioritize the importance of facilities, academics, past success, and coaches--we'll each kid is totally different and there is no right or wrong answers to this question. Some families have academics at the top--those kids will more often then not end up choosing between Harvard and Yale if they can play--see Adam Kerfoot. UNH can get one of these kids from time to time (Brad Flaishans/Eddie Caron), but it's an uphill battle.

UNH has enough talent to win a national title every year. Yale was the last team to enter the tournament this year. If you make the NCAA tournament, it means you have enough "talent" to win it--maybe the lone exception being the Atlantic League schools, they face a daunting task. That is the assistant coach's job--to ensure the talent is there. I believe their staff has done that year in and year out. You need to have a hot goalie, momentum, and some luck. UNH will get theirs.

I feel the coaches are doing an excellent job recruiting. Guys like Kelleher and Eiserman are blue chip recruits who could go anywhere they want. In the face of all the current challenges--see foreign language issue--I think they are doing a fantastic job. The recruiting job is harder for UNH now than it was during the so called "peak years." There are more challenges and different obstacles. Foreign language is just one issue--their (admissions) expectations have gone up in regards to the type of student they now accept. So many former great players at UNH would not be admitted now. I am trying to paint a picture of reality here, but some individuals appear very adament about finger pointing at certain people.

One more comment---someone said that the foreign language requirement is a minor issue and UNH should just "get out in front of it." Well the problem with identifying and recruiting canadian kids at 15 years old, the age required to "get out in front of it," is that they have not gone through the gaunlet of major junior. Is it really worth recruiting these kids at 15 when more often than not the best ones will head to the CHL? You can see the impact this has had on Michigan. Generally speaking, kids from BC will get recruited out of the BCHL, usually during their senior year of high school--after they have passed on major junior. This is too late for UNH in most cases. I believe that exceptions need to be made for students who dont have to take two years of a foreign language to graduate from their high schools. Do you realize how hard it is to convince a kid to go to summer school and take spanish 2 when Michigan or BU is offering the kid a full scholorship and the kid doesnt have to go to summer school?

These are real challenges. These are real obstacles. I agree the facilities are not "needed." They would REALLY help, but you can still bring in the talent with the current infrastructure. What is needed is for the admissions office to bend. And please do not think that the athletic department has not done everything to make this happen. Men's hockey is not the only program this has hurt. Women's hockey at UNH has been under .500 the last three years. Look at when the new admissions people came in and you will see the Women's teams win total decrease each year.

And yes, I am making a career hockey. I have been accused of many things, but being politically correct has never been one of them. I'd just like to give voice to the real challenges the program faces. If you guys care about the program you should be entitled to be informed about the challenges and issues and hopefully I have answered some questions.

Cheers.

[hockeyjunkie10]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2012-2013 Postseason Thread

Josh - Great insight in the forum and on USHR..definitely some good points made here. As I know you know, the player you referenced is Alex Kerfoot (not Adam). I figured I'd point it out before someone (who knows more than you ha ha) crucifies you for a mistake that it's obvious you know...

[Chuck Murray]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2012-2013 Postseason Thread

I have been accused of many things, but being politically correct has never been one of them. I'd just like to give voice to the real challenges the program faces. If you guys care about the program you should be entitled to be informed about the challenges and issues and hopefully I have answered some questions.

Cheers.

Speaking for myself only, I find it refreshing to actually come on here and get some real insight, without the agenda-laden excuses that often reach us second-hand. I'm a firm believer in the saying "The harder I work, the luckier I get" ... so it was only the "luck" comment you made caused me to twitch. Just a little anyway.

I still have to believe most recruits put more stock into substance (i.e. coaches and program histories) than in the "bells & whistles", and I suspect both players AND coaches try to downplay the importance of establishing personal connections, as the process - as with any type of personal "sales" jobs - involves more rejection than acceptance, and no one likes to be "rejjected" OR seen as the "rejector". So sometimes it may be convenient for a recruit to say "Yeah, I really liked those facilities a lot", but does it make any sense for a kid to commit 4-5 years of their life to a really swell weight room, when he just can't stand the coach's guts, and won't fit with the program's style of play?

There was the example raised earlier of Sean Collins, and he reportedly said at some point after the fact that had Agganis been built when he was playing, he would've played there instead. Sure, that's easy to say now ... but considering UNH recruited his HS teammate (Stave Saviano) the previous year, AND the Reading HS head hockey coach had direct ties with UNH and Coach Umile, you can see there was probably a little bit of polite reinvention of history in his after-the-fact remarks. Talk is cheap, actions etc.

Good luck with your career, Josh. And don't be a stranger here. We have lots of other questions requiring your insight, but I won't be a pig (yet) and I'll let others ask 'em.

[scoreboard]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2012-2013 Postseason Thread

I checked UNH's foreign language requirements against other similar schools (UVM, Maine, UML, UMass) on a site called collegedata.com. UNH's requirements regarding foreign language is basically the same as those schools. Do other schools bend the requirement for athletes? Maybe.

[C-H-C]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2012-2013 Postseason Thread

Here's a list of recent UNH recruits who considered going to an Ivy League program:

Liam Darcy - "Ivy League schools Harvard, Yale and Cornell also showed interest."

Danny Tirone - "I was also considering the University of Vermont and Harvard, but when it came time to make a decision, UNH really stood out and made it an easy choice for me."

Patrick Grasso - "What other college programs were recruiting you?" Grasso: "Minnesota State, Harvard, Yale, Colorado College, RPI, St. Cloud State, Penn State, and Princeton."

Collin MacDonald - "To show how quickly MacDonald’s stock has shot up, consider that he visited one college after the EJHL Classic (Providence College). Then, last week, he visited four more schools on the drive up to – or returning from -- the Beantown Classic (Harvard, UNH, Sacred Heart, and Quinnipiac). Also, Penn State was trying to get him on campus, and other Ivies such as Dartmouth and Brown were calling."

[C-H-C]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2012-2013 Postseason Thread

I have a question for the UNH people. How much does having the Whittemore Center on Olympic size ice hurt recruiting along with a dated building that needs updating?

Here are the main reasons James van Riemsdyk - #2 overall pick in the 2007 NHL Draft - chose to play for UNH:

"James, being from a town more than an hour from major cities, really liked the location of the UNH campus. Second, James liked the idea of maneuvering around the olympic-sized rink at the Whittemore Center. Finally, JvR wanted to play the UNH style of hockey which emphasizes skating, passing, and transitions."

Other top recruits who have committed over the last few years have also said they were attracted to UNH in part because of the olympic-sized ice surface. For example:

Tyler Kelleher - "I've played in one game at UNH two summers ago in a tournament. I loved the rink and I really liked how big the ice surface was. I think it is definitely an advantage for me as a smaller player with more space."

Shane Eiserman - "Yes, I have played (at the Whittemore Center) before in a couple of summer tournaments. I really like the olympic sized rink because your speed is a huge advantage and you are able to make more things happen with more time."