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Shirtless Guy
03-14-2013, 04:47 PM
LynahFan --


So in 16 years of existence, the team has NEVER dipped below 52%. Every single roster has had MORE Minnesotans than out of staters.

ALL 4 Title winning teams had an average of 67% Minnesotans on the roster. Hopefully that percentage drops in a few weeks here.

So you and your friend took one year out of 16 and tried to make an argument out of it. Meaning you had 6.25% of the relevant data.

Do you normally come to conclusions on a matter with only 6.25% of the relevant data???Pardon me for not feeling like doing all the research to refute your claims, I don't have enough time in the day to do all the research, you're the one making the claim so you're the one that should have to back it up with data. I made an attempt to compare with my own favorite team and you refuted that because they only have one DI team, so then I tried to compare it to my home state and you refuted that because WI supposedly has a similar policy. I've never once heard a Wisconsin fan talk up how much they love that the team focuses on giving more opportunities to Wisconsinites than out-of-staters. For the life of me I don't know why you didn't bring up the public institution argument for Michigan Tech to save me the trouble of doing the research on Wisconsin. I could have jumped right to a private school out east and see how Massachusetts/New England centric BC or BU are...I can't do any of the NY schools because I'm pretty sure none of them are DI in everything...I can't do CC because they are D3 in most things. I don't care to do DU because I hate DU.

JDUBBS1280
03-14-2013, 04:56 PM
Back2Back - Just ignore them. The envy and insecurity on this board is palatable. People here would prefer to just make believe that hockey in this country grew all by it's lonesome. Thankfully, that mentality isn't held by the majority of the hockey community at large.

The Gopher have been, without a doubt, the most important and influential college hockey program in this hostory of college hockey.

But that hurts feelings and bruises egos, so it's really not even worth the headache.

Slap Shot
03-14-2013, 05:09 PM
Back2Back - Just ignore them. The envy and insecurity on this board is palatable. People here would prefer to just make believe that hockey in this country grew all by it's lonesome. Thankfully, that mentality isn't held by the majority of the hockey community at large.

The Gopher have been, without a doubt, the most important and influential college hockey program in this hostory of college hockey.

But that hurts feelings and bruises egos, so it's really not even worth the headache.

lol

Shirtless Guy
03-14-2013, 05:25 PM
Herb Brooks wasn't even the first choice for the 1980 olympic team...Michigan Tech's John MacInnes was asked first but declined because of his health issues.

Anyone could have lead those boys to Gold!

Back2BackU-MnPride2002
03-14-2013, 05:33 PM
Again, if the principle causes the pool, then why doesn't Minnesota just do the same thing with swimming or gymnastics? There must be something different about - something unique to - men's hockey. Minnesota has taken advantage of that difference to adopt a policy specifically for hockey - the sport caused the principle at least as much as the other way around.



LynahFan --

Well, there is a lot to this whole issue. And to address it properly may take more time and effort than I want to give the subject right now, with the weekend coming up and lots of hockey games going on. I'll just say for now the sport did NOT cause the principle. What was going on in the sport may have pushed the issue and the principle to a breaking point, Mariucci could have given in to the pressures of the time and gone with the flow, and then he would have possibly had the opposite effect on not only hockey at Minnesota, but with all of its other sports as well. The hockey team doing well and being so proud of its all-American and mostly Minnesotan lineup was probably an inspiration for other Gopher teams to stick to the principle for longer than they otherwise would have.

But instead, he pushed back and all hockey fans are better off because of it, whether they are willing to admit it or acknowledge it or not. But the Principle was there from the very beginning. It's what a PUBLIC university is supposed to be all about. Now I'm not ragging on Public Universities that do not follow this principle as much or at all, for there are many circumstances that may have led them to feeling forced to give up the principle, or to never have followed it when it came to athletics at all? Some of them are very understandable. Others are not. But I'm not here to point out other schools faults as much as just pointing out the positives about Minnesota.

The principle was there from the beginning, and the importance that the University put towards sticking by this principle would obviously fluctuate up and down with changing times and new Athletic Directors coming in with different ideas about how to run an Athletic Dept. And like I said, that fluctuation probably turned upward because of John Mariucci, who played football for a great coach and teacher Bernie Bierman.

Where did Bernie Bierman get his ideas about coaching from? The Innovator and Hall of Fame Coach Henry Williams?


If you want me to, I can go through the coaching tree of Henry Williams and how it spread out throughout the college and professional football world changing the game in ways most are not aware of. But since this is a hockey forum, I'll stick to how it affected hockey at Minnesota. Bernie Bierman, considered by many to be the greatest cfb coach of the 20th Century, passed on what he learned about coaching at Minnesota from Henry Williams to among many other future coaching greats, such as a cfb player who also played goalie for the Gophers, Bud Wilkinson, but also to one of his fb players John Mariucci, who then took what he had learned about coaching from Bernie Bierman while at Minnesota, and brought this knowledge to Minnesota as its hockey coach, where he passed it on to guys like Herb Brooks, and Bob Johnson who went on to win 6 Natl Titles in a 10 year time span before going on to win Olympic Gold Medals and NHL Stanley Cup Titles. And of course coaching success is not limited to just those 2, for Doug Woog, Craig Dahl, Dean Blais and many others have also gone on to differing levels of success coaching hockey.



So, no, the principle did NOT start with Mariucci, or with hockey. It can be traced back to UMn's beginnings and its very first BIG COACHING HIRE. Williams Arena stands as a testament to his incredible contribution to the world of college sports. He was a football coach who now has a Basketball Arena named after him. And Williams contributions didn't just affect college and professional football and college, Olympic and professional hockey, either, for his influence can be traced to other sports as well. But even though that backs up my point, its probably still too far off topic, so I'll leave it at that for now.

Back2BackU-MnPride2002
03-14-2013, 05:46 PM
DaveStPaul just boxed up Pride guy and he is too dumb to know it.


Honestly Tipsy, the fact that you think that is funny, well, hey, glad I could bring some happiness to your life. The fact that you think I am "too dumb", well, that makes ME laugh, so thank YOU for bringing some laughter into my life. I saw how incredible of a job you did defending Miami after I had slandered them, and I am simply, blown away. Very impressed with your use of nothing, to back up nothing. It's convinced me of the error of my ways. I will no longer depend on facts and stats and wins and losses and scoring margins, I'll just ask you what your opinion is from now on. How could I go wrong?! lol

Back2BackU-MnPride2002
03-14-2013, 06:01 PM
OK, in an effort to get this thread back on topic



UPDATED TOP FIVE STANDINGS(unofficial of course, since I am not HumRsky)


01. Michigan - 454
02. Bost Coll - 408
t3. Nrth Dak - 399
t3. Minnesota - 399 (I'm adding 4 pts to UMn's pt total, since they won a Reg Ssn Conf Title)
05. Bost Univ - 390

I'll leave it up to HumRsky to update the full list.

Those 5 are guaranteed to remain Top 5 no matter what happens this post season. But with Michigan looking like they probably won't make the tourney, the other 4 could all gain a lot of ground on them. And if Boston U doesn't make it, the separation between the Top 4 and #5 could increase quite abit, which would be a shame. BU is such a big part of college hockey history, I would hate to see them fall too far behind the other 4.

LynahFan
03-14-2013, 06:29 PM
The hockey team doing well and being so proud of its all-American and mostly Minnesotan lineup was probably an inspiration for other Gopher teams to stick to the principle for longer than they otherwise would have.So the positive, tangible benefit of the principle was....more principle. Circular argument much?


But I'm not here to point out other schools faults as much as just pointing out the positives about Minnesota. Except that Minnesota doesn't have a substantially higher % of in-state athletes than Wisconsin, nor, I'm guessing, most public universities. You're chasing a ghost.


...a bunch of coaching lineage stuff...What does this have to do with the recruiting policy? Successful coaches spawn successful assistants at most successful schools regardless of where their players come from.

Osorojo
03-14-2013, 06:44 PM
Pride in your community is an admirable quality, but obsessive provincialism is not.

Back2BackU-MnPride2002
03-14-2013, 06:59 PM
Except that Minnesota doesn't have a substantially higher % of in-state athletes than Wisconsin, nor, I'm guessing, most public universities. You're chasing a ghost.



LynahFan --

You should learn a lesson from your last BOLD statement based on 6.25% of the relevant information.

Comparing UMn's percentages of in-state athletes with ONE school out of HUNDREDS, for just ONE year out of OVER A HUNDRED, just isn't a lot to hang your argument on, but I've come to find out that kind of lack of relevant information hasn't seemed to stop you yet, so I doubt it will in the future.


I PROVED to you that taking one year out of context doesn't prove anything. But I'm sure you will insist on continueing your line of reasoning, no matter what evidence I present. Some might call that being close minded?!


Btw, your arguments, questions, points, etc., are getting weaker and weaker as the argument goes along. But that often happens when your argument lacks substance and evidence and facts to back it up. And the few facts you do try to point to, were taken seriously out of context. We are talking about HISTORY here, a very long and storied history, and so you reference percentages from THIS year and this year ONLY. Weak.

Shirtless Guy
03-14-2013, 07:04 PM
So YOU DO THE RESEARCH and prove other state schools are not as good at promoting instate as Minnesota. I'm sick of doing research only to have you explain it away. PROVE IT.

Back2BackU-MnPride2002
03-14-2013, 07:19 PM
So YOU DO THE RESEARCH and prove other state schools are not as good at promoting instate as Minnesota. I'm sick of doing research only to have you explain it away. PROVE IT.


Fair enough.



I'll just give you what I found after checking out 1 school. I picked Arizona because Fred Enke, a former Gopher fb player went down there and made a huge impact on the school, along with a former Gopher Baseball player who led them to their first 3 NCAA Titles in Baseball, and a good friend of my father's went down there to coach their Basketball team and won them a Natl Title. Go Auggies!!!



wVB - 2-13 ---- 13%
wbb - 2-10 ---- 17%
Soc - 5-14 ---- 26%
Wglf - 0-8 ----- 00%
Gym - 2-13 ---- 15%
wSw - 4-19 ---- 17%
Sftbl - 7-9 ---- 44%
Trck - 6-34 ---- 15%
wTen - 0-7 ---- 00%
mTen - 2-9 ---- 18%
mSw - 6-23 --- 21%
Mgolf - 3-9 ---- 25%
mbb - 2-14 ---- 13%
Bsbll - 13-20 -- 39%
cftbll - 23-67 -- 26%


Total - 77-271 -- 22%



I don't know, I'd say so far its pretty obvious UMn does a HELL of a better job than Arizona. But that's just one school out of hundreds, and just one season looked at. But still, other than softball at 44%, the next best team is Baseball at 39% and I doubt any other team has better than 25%.

When I find the time, maybe I'll go look up a couple from different regions of the country?

UncleRay
03-14-2013, 08:58 PM
See, this is where speaking on a topic, out of ignorance is not a good thing to do. See, I have experience and knowledge of the situation. I've followed every single one of the Gopher teams, including knowing where all of the players are from in seasons past. I haven't done a great job of keeping up with the teams the last 5 or so years, but something about starting up a new business, all while raising up a teenager on my own and taking care of elderly parents who are sporadically needing more and more help from me, while maintaining my regular job can kind of put things like following your favorite sports teams closely on hold until the kid moves out and your schedule starts to lighten up. So I may not have been all over the fact that things have started to change a bit with some of the sports, and I think that I can point to a specific times and events and circumstances such as new leadership, new teams added to the conf, new lines of thinking as far as conference goals, and one of the biggest factors, is just the HUGE increase in simply paying for college sports now. But that's an issue I can address in more detail at a later time, if needed. Don't worry, we already know jdubbs.
Comparing UMn's percentages of in-state athletes with ONE school out of HUNDREDS, for just ONE year out of OVER A HUNDRED, just isn't a lot to hang your argument on, but I've come to find out that kind of lack of relevant information hasn't seemed to stop you yet, so I doubt it will in the future.Tell you what, Mrs. JDubbs, I'm with LynahFan - I believe most state schools have primarily in-state student athletes, or base their recruiting in-state. If you want me to really believe that the vaunted U of MN's percentage of in-state athletes is something to be crowed about, show us that it is significantly higher than the vast majority of other state schools, for sports across the board. And I'll suggest using states with a population base large enough to support DI athletics before you pull up Alaska, Idaho, Maine, or something else that would be completely laughable. You want me to believe it? You claim to be the stat-woman? Prove it. Put your money where your big, fat mouth is.

burd
03-14-2013, 09:28 PM
Back2Back - Just ignore them. The envy and insecurity on this board is palatable. People here would prefer to just make believe that hockey in this country grew all by it's lonesome. Thankfully, that mentality isn't held by the majority of the hockey community at large.

The Gopher have been, without a doubt, the most important and influential college hockey program in this hostory of college hockey.

But that hurts feelings and bruises egos, so it's really not even worth the headache.

Seeing Dubber post comments to Back2Back is like watching A Beautiful Mind without the beautiful mind.

Back2BackU-MnPride2002
03-14-2013, 10:43 PM
And I'll suggest using states with a population base large enough to support DI athletics before you pull up Alaska, Idaho, Maine, or something else that would be completely laughable.


Arizona was too small for you?




And when you say sports across the board, I guess that's fine, but its not really completely fair. Like I said, 3 of our 4 worst sports in this regard, were put on the chopping block just a few years ago, because we sponsor a whole ****load of sports, more than the "vast majority" of schools out there, not ALL other schools, but more than the vast majority of them, and it is a very heavy burden to carry, especially since when you calculate in the higher travel costs for Minnesota sports, because of our location, we seem to be going way out of our way just having these sports, but Joel Maturi our AD at the time, a guy who stated many times he was not going to cut any sports if he could help it, helped bring in enough in donations to keep all 4 of those sports going for at least a couple more years.

So, despite those sports not being popular in Minnesota, they have been kept. Why would the school keep these sports if they are not making enough money to pay their own way? Umm? Maybe because, despite their not being hugely popular in Minnesota, there are at least SOME Minnesotans that probably appreciate UMn having the sport, so that the few who do take those sports seriously, and prove themselves worthy at least have the opportunity made available for them.

This, instead of seeing it as evidence that Minnesota doesn't hold to this principle any more than any other school, in reality seems to me to be evidence of the opposite.





I believe most state schools have primarily in-state student athletes, or base their recruiting in-state.



Sure they do, when it suits them. It doesn't cost as much to recruit in-state. And if a school is located somewhere where there are lots of top notch athletes to recruit, why go elsewhere?!


But let me ask you, what sports do they recruit mostly locally for, when there are a TON of more talented athletes to be found elsewhere in another country?!


See that is what you need to be looking at. So what if a school in Texas recruits mostly Texas fb players or Baseball players? Where would they go that there'd be better athletes?!


But Minnesota went out of their way to recruit locally when at the time the Canadian hockey players that they could have recruited were bigger, older, more experienced, and more talented.

You tell me what school out there didn't do this? I'm not saying there isn't one, I'm asking you if you know of one.






You want me to believe it?


Honestly, I don't really care if you believe it or not.

Gurtholfin
03-14-2013, 10:45 PM
Honestly, I don't really care if you believe it or not.


You sure seem to care based on your 12,572 words in this thread.

Tipsy McStagger
03-14-2013, 11:22 PM
Honestly Tipsy, the fact that you think that is funny, well, hey, glad I could bring some happiness to your life. The fact that you think I am "too dumb", well, that makes ME laugh, so thank YOU for bringing some laughter into my life. I saw how incredible of a job you did defending Miami after I had slandered them, and I am simply, blown away. Very impressed with your use of nothing, to back up nothing. It's convinced me of the error of my ways. I will no longer depend on facts and stats and wins and losses and scoring margins, I'll just ask you what your opinion is from now on. How could I go wrong?! lol
I don't think it is funny. I said he put you in a box. Then, you basically ignored what he said. Maybe you should read the thread title again. This is accomplishments only. Quantifiable ones. No intangibles. Yet, here you are typing thousands of words to try and argue a point that goes against what this thread is about. Something JDUBBS also tried to do and failed miserably and got on everyone's nerves. That is what is dumb to me.

As far as Miami goes, I am not trying to re-invent the wheel. I guess you are. People that are probably a lot smarter than me made some mathematical formulas to determine the relative strength of a hockey team. People have been using them for years, and if there are better methods out there someone should publish them and explain why they are better. Until then, I guess we will just have to use RPI, PWR and KRACH. The RPI, PWR and KRACH all have Miami as the 3rd best team in the country. Your statement that "They have to be the worst #3 rated team ever in the history of college hockey" was not backed up by any "facts and stats and wins and losses and scoring margins." I didn't see any comparisons to #3 teams of previous years.

Back2BackU-MnPride2002
03-15-2013, 12:44 AM
Yesterday 03:11 PM #309

Shirtless Guy

Minnesota has 23 NCAA sports and only 8 of them have more Minnesotans than non-Minnesotans
Only two have 75% or greater amount of Minnesotans than non-Minnesotans...Men's Hockey and Women's Soccer.
Overall there are more non-Minnesotans among all Women on D1 rosters 178 vs 154
AND more non-Minnesotans among all Men on D1 rosters 226 vs 180




Actually, 10 of them, not 8, have more Minnesotans than Non-Minnesotans & Women's hockey is 2 years away from being at 77% again, the same percentage they were at when they won their Natl Title in 2005.

As for the #s you mentioned, UMn was going to axe 4 sports, but the Golf team won a Natl Title and golf fans donated enough money to cover the other 3 sports. But if you take those 3 sports out of the mix, and then take out football, which pays all the bills, then the percentage of women from Minnesota increases to 47.75%, which is basically, pretty **** close to 50% and the men's percentage jumps up to 51.71 percent. And the overall total goes up to 49.56%. So basically, yeah, rounding up, 50%. Can't hold football against a school, fb pays the bills. Can't hold sports a school was going to get rid of but fans wanted and donated to make sure they got kept, against a school either.

Combine this all with the modern reality that you have to have a good balance between remaining competitive and offering plenty of opportunities for locals. If you offset that balance too much in either direction, you betray the mission of the school, and devalue what you are offering the residents of Minnesota so it then no longer matters if there are lots of opportunities or not. Not to mention you could go broke and not be able to pay the bills and then would have to cut sports out, thus denying the opportunities that otherwise would be there for Minnesota residents.


I'm not sure exactly, why for example, the Women's hockey team beefed up with more out of staters recently than in the past, but looking at it objectively, in so doing, it seems that they got themselves some of the most incredible hockey players ever, and have garnered themselves a Natl Title, and a perfect regular season and hopefully another Natl title out of the deal, AND, back to the real objective of this, put UMn back into the position of being able to offer the HIGHEST QUALITY opportunities to the residents of Minnesota, and 9 out of the 11 next recruits going to UMn, are local Minnesota girls taking advantage of these QUALITY opportunities that have been created by applying a good BALANCED approach to recruiting.

SanTropez
03-15-2013, 12:50 AM
Pride in your community is an admirable quality, but obsessive provincialism is not.

Hey, JDubbs resents (resembles) that remark.

SanTropez
03-15-2013, 12:52 AM
Keep fighting that good fight Back2backMNpride2002