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Back2BackU-MnPride2002
03-13-2013, 03:58 PM
Actually there are 4 mens teams with a worse ratio than Football:
Basketball, Tennis, Swimming & Diving, Gymnastics
And 4 womens teams worse than Football:
Tennis, Volleyball, Golf, Gymnastics

Surely you would agree that Tennis, Swimming & Diving, Volleyball, Golf and at least Women's Gymnastics should do better than the 33% or less they are currently doing and would be if this was more generally a University policy?



No, I wouldn't. Tennis is NOT a big sport in Minnesota. For one the weather here makes it difficult for Minnesotans in sports like Tennis and Golf to have huge success. Who do we have in Tennis history? David Wheaton? He went to Stanford I believe, and he's hardly one of histories greatest, and he's about all Minnesota has produced and like I said, he left the state. Golf? We have Tom Lehman who I played with in the past. And the golf team fluctuates, some years I know for a fact there were more Minnesotans on the team than out of staters, but they've tried to supplement the Minnesota talent with players from England and Australian and other places. And they've had a great deal of success because of this, thus keeping the Golf program alive, and allowing for Minnesota players to be able to stay home to play collegiate golf, an opportunity that would not be afforded them right now had the team not experienced some success, and that success was in part due to out of state talent, but only IN PART. I believe it was a local boy who had the best round of his career that really made the team that year?

Gymnastics as a high school sport, at least from my out-state perspective, doesn't exist, at all. So that one doesn't shock me. Swimming & Diving? Well, like I said, they make exceptions when the state alone can not supply enough quality athletes to put forward a highly competitive team. Coaches started making international connections and now we're getting a lot more out of staters, and have had success, too. As for Basketball? That fluctuates from year to year, and like I said, the more importance a sport has to the financial outlook of the entire athletic dept, the more willing everyone is to stray from the norm, but even saying that, the bb team has fluctuated from year to year, some years having more Minnesotans than other years, and one of the BIGGEST concerns of ALL Gopher bb fans, is that keeping Tubby Smith around will prevent us from getting what is being called the Big 3, that is 3 recruits all from Minnesota. There is another guy from Chicago who is good friends with the best rated of this group, but no one seems to care about this guy, argued by some to be the #1 overall recruit in the nation, and instead Gopher fans seem to act like they'd MUCH rather have a local boy who is rated in the Top 50, but no where near #1 like the guy from Chicago. WHEN the local talent is there, THAT is who the Gopher fans want. THAT is who the school wants. If those players leave the state, the school NEEDS the coach to get good players from somewhere else in order to keep paying the bills, as cbb and cfb do. Those 2 sports pay the bills for the other 20 sports. Hk basically breaks even.


As for the Women's sports, same goes for women's tennis as I said about men's. I'll add that Swimming and Diving is not a huge sport in Mn at the high school level, and again, that's coming from an outstate perspective, and by outstate I mean, not living in the Twin Cities, but in outstate Mn, or greater Mn as some call it, out in the boonies, the sticks, the country, up north, etc.. I know that the VB team takes the best from Mn, and gets almost all of them, but has expanded its out of state recruiting more and more in the last 15 years or so, and has had incredible success because of it. So the 33 percent or whatever that are from Minnesota, are getting to play on one of the best vb teams in the nation. The golf team sucks ash, so maybe they feel that they need to look out of state for recruits to improve the situation, before the risk of losing the program becomes a real issue again? Not sure about Gymnastics?



But I bet if you looked at the #s from the past 10 or 20 years instead of just one year, those ratios would fluctuate. Some of those sports would move up above 5-% and others might drop down below. It's not an exact science, and you can only do as much as you can without risking fielding a totally horrible team.


It's a balancing act. Back when the U didn't have 23 sports to support and players often played 2 or 3 sports in college, it was MUCH easier to field teams of primarily Minnesota natives, AND do well. And in some sports it honestly wasn't as big of a deal whether they did well or not.


But if you can believe it, the teams that formed one of the greatest cfb dynasties of history, the 1934-41 Gophers, were almost exclusively Minnesota boys, with a few exceptions. Those same players played hockey and basketball and track and golf and baseball for the Gophers as well. That doesn't happen anymore.

And Minnesota's population isn't growing like other states' are, so it forces the school to adjust, especially with Title IX and being forced to have more women's sports teams than mens.



And honestly, even 33% being the low end for all the 23 sports, is pretty **** impressive if you take all things into consideration.

Back2BackU-MnPride2002
03-13-2013, 04:01 PM
Maybe you should look again who you are talking about. The person that said this is a Michigan fan, and a noted hater of Miami hockey. She said it herself.


You are right SweeneyHawksHockey --

That was a Michigan fan, wasn't it? Not ticked that I was dissing Miami, but ticked that I was also dissing the CCHA. Yep, you are correct.


Takes the funny out of it, though. Thanks, lol.

SanTropez
03-13-2013, 04:08 PM
My eyes are bleeding, please learn how to quote properly.

Thanks :)

SanTropez
03-13-2013, 04:08 PM
My eyes are bleeding, please learn how to quote properly.

Thanks :)

Like this...

Shirtless Guy
03-13-2013, 04:12 PM
No, I wouldn't. Tennis is NOT a big sport in Minnesota. For one the weather here makes it difficult for Minnesotans in sports like Tennis and Golf to have huge success. Who do we have in Tennis history? David Wheaton? He went to Stanford I believe, and he's hardly one of histories greatest, and he's about all Minnesota has produced and like I said, he left the state. Golf? We have Tom Lehman who I played with in the past. And the golf team fluctuates, some years I know for a fact there were more Minnesotans on the team than out of staters, but they've tried to supplement the Minnesota talent with players from England and Australian and other places. And they've had a great deal of success because of this, thus keeping the Golf program alive, and allowing for Minnesota players to be able to stay home to play collegiate golf, an opportunity that would not be afforded them right now had the team not experienced some success, and that success was in part due to out of state talent, but only IN PART. I believe it was a local boy who had the best round of his career that really made the team that year?

Gymnastics as a high school sport, at least from my out-state perspective, doesn't exist, at all. So that one doesn't shock me. Swimming & Diving? Well, like I said, they make exceptions when the state alone can not supply enough quality athletes to put forward a highly competitive team. Coaches started making international connections and now we're getting a lot more out of staters, and have had success, too. As for Basketball? That fluctuates from year to year, and like I said, the more importance a sport has to the financial outlook of the entire athletic dept, the more willing everyone is to stray from the norm, but even saying that, the bb team has fluctuated from year to year, some years having more Minnesotans than other years, and one of the BIGGEST concerns of ALL Gopher bb fans, is that keeping Tubby Smith around will prevent us from getting what is being called the Big 3, that is 3 recruits all from Minnesota. There is another guy from Chicago who is good friends with the best rated of this group, but no one seems to care about this guy, argued by some to be the #1 overall recruit in the nation, and instead Gopher fans seem to act like they'd MUCH rather have a local boy who is rated in the Top 50, but no where near #1 like the guy from Chicago. WHEN the local talent is there, THAT is who the Gopher fans want. THAT is who the school wants. If those players leave the state, the school NEEDS the coach to get good players from somewhere else in order to keep paying the bills, as cbb and cfb do. Those 2 sports pay the bills for the other 20 sports. Hk basically breaks even.

As for the Women's sports, same goes for women's tennis as I said about men's. I'll add that Swimming and Diving is not a huge sport in Mn at the high school level, and again, that's coming from an outstate perspective, and by outstate I mean, not living in the Twin Cities, but in outstate Mn, or greater Mn as some call it, out in the boonies, the sticks, the country, up north, etc.. I know that the VB team takes the best from Mn, and gets almost all of them, but has expanded its out of state recruiting more and more in the last 15 years or so, and has had incredible success because of it. So the 33 percent or whatever that are from Minnesota, are getting to play on one of the best vb teams in the nation. The golf team sucks ash, so maybe they feel that they need to look out of state for recruits to improve the situation, before the risk of losing the program becomes a real issue again? Not sure about Gymnastics?

But I bet if you looked at the #s from the past 10 or 20 years instead of just one year, those ratios would fluctuate. Some of those sports would move up above 5-% and others might drop down below. It's not an exact science, and you can only do as much as you can without risking fielding a totally horrible team.

It's a balancing act. Back when the U didn't have 23 sports to support and players often played 2 or 3 sports in college, it was MUCH easier to field teams of primarily Minnesota natives, AND do well. And in some sports it honestly wasn't as big of a deal whether they did well or not.

But if you can believe it, the teams that formed one of the greatest cfb dynasties of history, the 1934-41 Gophers, were almost exclusively Minnesota boys, with a few exceptions. Those same players played hockey and basketball and track and golf and baseball for the Gophers as well. That doesn't happen anymore.

And Minnesota's population isn't growing like other states' are, so it forces the school to adjust, especially with Title IX and being forced to have more women's sports teams than mens.

And honestly, even 33% being the low end for all the 23 sports, is pretty **** impressive if you take all things into consideration.33% is not the low end, the lowest is 10% and Title IX does no force Minnesota to have more women's teams than men, it forces equal opportunity based on enrollment. Football forces Minnesota to have more women's sports than men's to attempt to reach equal opportunity.
Girl's hockey is extremely popular in Minnesota and yet the Gophers only have 50% of their current roster from Minnesota. I would think they could still be #1 in the country and have 70% Minnesotans...don't need the streak so don't need all those imports...
To reiterate what I said before, it seems extremely odd that this would be a school "policy" and to not have more women from Minnesota simply because success probably isn't that important to those teams. I thought it was about promoting local even if it means losing more? the low end women's sports aren't going anywhere even if they are awful because of Title IX so why not give the scholarships to the best available Minnesotans?

Shirtless Guy
03-13-2013, 04:39 PM
For comparison, as a Michigan Tech fan, MTU actually has a better % of overall players from Michigan than Minnesota from Minnesota...at 47%
Considering Michigan Tech's remote location from the majority of Michigan's population, thats pretty impressive. In quite a few of the women's sports, a large chuck of the athletes come from Wisconsin simply because MTU is the best D2 school anywhere near Northern Wisconsin, especially the northeastern areas around Appleton, Oshkosh, Green Bay.
Men's sports are way more dominated by in-state athletes at Michigan Tech than Minnesota...55.5% vs 44.3%

Back2BackU-MnPride2002
03-13-2013, 04:40 PM
33% is not the low end, the lowest is 10% and Title IX does no force Minnesota to have more women's teams than men, it forces equal opportunity based on enrollment. Football forces Minnesota to have more women's sports than men's to attempt to reach equal opportunity.
Girl's hockey is extremely popular in Minnesota and yet the Gophers only have 50% of their current roster from Minnesota. I would think they could still be #1 in the country and have 70% Minnesotans...don't need the streak so don't need all those imports...
To reiterate what I said before, it seems extremely odd that this would be a school "policy" and to not have more women from Minnesota simply because success probably isn't that important to those teams. I thought it was about promoting local even if it means losing more? the low end women's sports aren't going anywhere even if they are awful because of Title IX so why not give the scholarships to the best available Minnesotans?



Well, I thought that you would know what I meant, when I said that Title IX forces schools to have more women's sports than mens, because as everyone without some beef against football knows and acknowledges, football pays all the bills. So no, Title IX does not force it, cfb and THE REALITY OF THINGS COST MONEY, forces it to be like that, and for every college, not just Minnesota.


You mentioned the women's hockey team, and I haven't had a chance to go look it up and confirm ANY of your #s, but what I noticed was that 6 of UMns incoming recruits for next year are, yep, ALL FROM MINNESOTA. And 3 of the 4 committed to come into the program the year after, are ALL FROM MINNESOTA.

That's 9 out of 11.

And since 3 Srs and 4 of the Juniors on the team are out of staters, that 50% is going to jump up next year, and then even more the year after that.

Like I said, it fluctuates.

And I said its about BALANCE. We almost lost 4 sports back in 2002. But the Golf team, partly because of some out of state players on the team, won a Natl Title, and miraculously so as they were on the verge of elimation after the first 2 rounds, and just got in by like 1 stroke, and then moved up from 15th place to 7th on day 3, and all the way up to 1st on the final day. That Natl title inspired some alums to work at raising up the funds to not only keep the Men's Golf Program, but the other 3 programs as well. Had we stuck to a strict only Minnesotans policy, or a strict at least 50% policy for every sport, we'd be down at least 4 sports right now. But sticking "IN GENERAL" to that policy, but allowing for some discretion to by used by the highly paid coaches we hire to make these kinds of decisions helped the entire athletic dept in general and the Men's Golf team a great deal.

BALANCE.

The school looks for a good and healthy balance between gaining success, but while striving to give as many opportunities to WORTHY local athletes as possible.



And what sport, btw, is it that is at 10%?

Back2BackU-MnPride2002
03-13-2013, 04:42 PM
For comparison, as a Michigan Tech fan, MTU actually has a better % of overall players from Michigan than Minnesota from Minnesota...at 47%
Considering Michigan Tech's remote location from the majority of Michigan's population, thats pretty impressive. In quite a few of the women's sports, a large chuck of the athletes come from Wisconsin simply because MTU is the best D2 school anywhere near Northern Wisconsin, especially the northeastern areas around Appleton, Oshkosh, Green Bay.
Men's sports are way more dominated by in-state athletes at Michigan Tech than Minnesota...55.5% vs 44.3%




That's great for the state of Michigan, and for Michigan Tech. But one question? Michigan Tech is Div 1 in how many sports?!


Local Div 2 and Div 3 schools here in Minnesota are absolutely LOADED with almost nothing but local talent, too. But that's comparing Apples to Oranges.

Shirtless Guy
03-13-2013, 04:43 PM
Well, I thought that you would know what I meant, when I said that Title IX forces schools to have more women's sports than mens, because as everyone without some beef against football knows and acknowledges, football pays all the bills. So no, Title IX does not force it, cfb and THE REALITY OF THINGS COST MONEY, forces it to be like that, and for every college, not just Minnesota.


You mentioned the women's hockey team, and I haven't had a chance to go look it up and confirm ANY of your #s, but what I noticed was that 6 of UMns incoming recruits for next year are, yep, ALL FROM MINNESOTA. And 3 of the 4 committed to come into the program the year after, are ALL FROM MINNESOTA.

That's 9 out of 11.

And since 3 Srs and 4 of the Juniors on the team are out of staters, that 50% is going to jump up next year, and then even more the year after that.

Like I said, it fluctuates.

And I said its about BALANCE. We almost lost 4 sports back in 2002. But the Golf team, partly because of some out of state players on the team, won a Natl Title, and miraculously so as they were on the verge of elimation after the first 2 rounds, and just got in by like 1 stroke, and then moved up from 15th place to 7th on day 3, and all the way up to 1st on the final day. That Natl title inspired some alums to work at raising up the funds to not only keep the Men's Golf Program, but the other 3 programs as well. Had we stuck to a strict only Minnesotans policy, or a strict at least 50% policy for every sport, we'd be down at least 4 sports right now. But sticking "IN GENERAL" to that policy, but allowing for some discretion to by used by the highly paid coaches we hire to make these kinds of decisions helped the entire athletic dept in general and the Men's Golf team a great deal.

BALANCE.

The school looks for a good and healthy balance between gaining success, but while striving to give as many opportunities to WORTHY local athletes as possible.



And what sport, btw, is it that is at 10%?Men's Gymnastics, which to be fair isn't at all surprising. Men's swimming and diving is at <19%, Men's tennis is at ~22%

Shirtless Guy
03-13-2013, 04:46 PM
That's great for the state of Michigan, and for Michigan Tech. But one question? Michigan Tech is Div 1 in how many sports?!


Local Div 2 and Div 3 schools here in Minnesota are absolutely LOADED with almost nothing but local talent, too. But that's comparing Apples to Oranges.are you belittling the fact that Michigan Tech uses Michigan athletes? How dare you! You don't think its important for Michigan Tech to use Michigan Athletes? :D

To be honest, I just don't care enough to look up numbers for other schools, so I chose Michigan Tech...

Back2BackU-MnPride2002
03-13-2013, 05:00 PM
are you belittling the fact that Michigan Tech uses Michigan athletes? How dare you! You don't think its important for Michigan Tech to use Michigan Athletes?

To be honest, I just don't care enough to look up numbers for other schools, so I chose Michigan Tech...



I'm not belittling anything. I honestly think its great that MT recruits primarily Michigan athletes. I simply asked the question, how many sports does it compete at the Div 1 level, and what is the ratio in those those sports, as compared to the sports that are not Div 1.

It's simply an issue of different dynamics for Div 1 than Div 2. And again, different dynamics from both Div 1 and 2 to Div 3.

comparing Apples to Oranges to Grapes.


Find me an apple to compare my apple with. Know what I mean?

UncleRay
03-13-2013, 05:04 PM
No, I wouldn't. Tennis is NOT a big sport in Minnesota. For one the weather here makes it difficult for Minnesotans in sports like Tennis and Golf to have huge success.Never heard of indoor tennis? Even us Mainers have that.
Gymnastics as a high school sport, at least from my out-state perspective, doesn't exist, at all. So that one doesn't shock me. Swimming & Diving? Well, like I said, they make exceptions when the state alone can not supply enough quality athletes to put forward a highly competitive team.It shocks me. I thought the whole premise of the greatness of the Minnesota high school hockey system was because the vaunted U of MN only recruited local players. That that attracted the local lads and they all began skating around on frozen ponds with sticks and discs of vulcanized rubber in the hopes of one day landing a prized scholarship to pull on the sweater with the big maroon M that strikes so much fear in the hearts of college hockey players everywhere. (College hockey players everywhere who apparently owe their scholarships to the same fact that the vaunted U of MN only recruits local lads.) So with the same logic, all the vaunted U of MN has to do to build a killer swimming and diving program in local high schools - and across the entirety of the USofA, mind you, before the whole sport ceases to exist altogether - is to stock their own team with local kids exclusively.

edit: note how I kept what was relevant in your quote, deleted what I didn't need, yet kept your username and the USCHO tags so that other readers can click on that and be taken to your entire quote.

Back2BackU-MnPride2002
03-13-2013, 05:10 PM
Men's Gymnastics, which to be fair isn't at all surprising. Men's swimming and diving is at <19%, Men's tennis is at ~22%



Men's Gymnastics, eh?! Figures.



An example of the balance I am talking about, can be seen with Women's soccer. We had a coach who recruited as many of the top Minnesotans she could, but brought in good players from Iowa and Illinois and Wisconsin, and we had one of our best seasons yet. Team was about 60% Minnesotan? Now its at 85% Minnesotan and they are struggling.

Needs a better balance.


On the other side of the coin, the VB team is 33% Minnesotan and regularly gets to the Sweet 16 and Elite 8 and also the FF and Championship game even.

I think that 33% should be the low end, personally, and then a very high rate of success should be expected.

The Women's hockey team's low wnd should be higher, at 50%, and its at 12 out of 22 right now, just about 55%, but at the same time, while its maybe just a bit below where I think it should be? That very high rate of success thing can't go any higher. And like I said, 9 of their next 11 recruits are Minnesota girls, and they'll be replacing 7 out of staters and 4 Minnesotans. So that ratio will improve and be right about at that 70% you mentioned.

Shirtless Guy
03-13-2013, 05:12 PM
I'm not belittling anything. I honestly think its great that MT recruits primarily Michigan athletes. I simply asked the question, how many sports does it compete at the Div 1 level, and what is the ratio in those those sports, as compared to the sports that are not Div 1.

It's simply an issue of different dynamics for Div 1 than Div 2. And again, different dynamics from both Div 1 and 2 to Div 3.

comparing Apples to Oranges to Grapes.


Find me an apple to compare my apple with. Know what I mean?

Apples to Apples
Minnesota to Wisconsin
Total Athletes: 738 to 800
Percent In-State: 45.3% to 44.8%
Percent Men In-State: 44.3% to 43.3%
Percent Women In-State: 46.4% to 46.2%

Considering the numbers we're talking about, Wisconsin has more opportunities for in-state athletes 358 to 334 and the percentages are not significantly different.
Therefore, based on this years data, Minnesota does not not focus more on in-state athletes more than Wisconsin in documented significant way.
How's that?

Back2BackU-MnPride2002
03-13-2013, 05:23 PM
So with the same logic, all the vaunted U of MN has to do to build a killer swimming and diving program in local high schools - and across the entirety of the USofA, mind you, before the whole sport ceases to exist altogether - is to stock their own team with local kids exclusively.

edit: note how I kept what was relevant in your quote, deleted what I didn't need, yet kept your username and the USCHO tags so that other readers can click on that and be taken to your entire quote.




Sorry UncleRay - You have to forgive me, everything I know about surfing the internet and using a laptop has been completely and totally self taught. And it was only a few weeks ago that I was rewriting people's quotes by hand. I still listen to cassette tapes and watch vcr movies. lol



And if Swimming and Diving was a big revenue sport, and/OR the kind of sport that kids throughout the world wanted nothing more than to play and be the best at, you might be right and Minnesota could probably just do that.


In Minnesota, Wrestling is that kind of sport. We like it here in Minnesota, and UMn was very influential in the growth of the sport in the state, not as much as it was with hockey, but it was, and UMn followed the pattern of Minnesota hockey to a point, and has grown and become successful, and kids DO grow up wanting to be wrestlers now, like Brock Lesnar.

Women's BB and hockey and VB followed similar paths as well. Although women's bb was already developed throughout the state when the Varsity program started at Minnesota. But the team had its most success when it kept local stars home, and same with VB and women's hockey.



But outside of Cfb, Cbb, cBb, Wr on the mens side and VB, wbb, wSoc and wHy on the women's side, what other sports could really fit the bill?!


Rowing?! Is that what you grew up wanting to be, a big college Rowing star????

Back2BackU-MnPride2002
03-13-2013, 05:31 PM
[
QUOTE]Apples to Apples
Minnesota to Wisconsin
Total Athletes: 738 to 800
Percent In-State: 45.3% to 44.8%
Percent Men In-State: 44.3% to 43.3%
Percent Women In-State: 46.4% to 46.2%

Considering the numbers we're talking about, Wisconsin has more opportunities for in-state athletes 358 to 334 and the percentages are not significantly different.
Therefore, based on this years data, Minnesota does not not focus more on in-state athletes more than Wisconsin in documented significant way.
How's that? [/QUOTE


Because Wisconsin, like Minnesota, is a PUBLIC University that probably feels a responsibility to the residents of the state who pay taxes that support the school.

Another reason is Wisconsin has a larger population with which to work with. And Marquette is only competitive with them when it comes to recruits in basketball, nothing else.

Wisconsin is also of the same Midwestern mindset. My guess is Iowa's numbers aren't that much lower. Although Iowa's population probably forces them to look elsewhere far more.


Oh, and finally, one other obvious reason, and this goes for any non-revenue sport at any school. Some of these sports have a very limited operating budget and so not a lot of money to spend on recruiting athletes from all over the country or the world. So its only natural to look in your backyard first.



Look, I'm NOT dissing schools who look elsewhere, some schools are forced to do so, including in some sports, Minnesota. This isn't a deal where there has to be a negative to balance out the positive. It's simply that in the sport of hockey, Minnesota has earned a positive mark, and hence why they have received more of the Hall of Fame accolades and invites to play for the Olympic team and to coach the Olympic team than other schools.

UncleRay
03-13-2013, 05:41 PM
And if Swimming and Diving was a big revenue sport, and/OR the kind of sport that kids throughout the world wanted nothing more than to play and be the best at, you might be right and Minnesota could probably just do that.Ummm, you don't really want to compare the number of kids worldwide involved in liquid water sports versus those in frozen water sports, do you??? I don't need to do a two-minute search to know that that won't even be close. So, in true jdubber fashion, start backpedaling, mom.

Slap Shot
03-13-2013, 05:51 PM
There's no way this guy isn't JDUBBs, but either way you guys just keep getting sucked into arguing with them both. There's that whole saying, "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results"...

burd
03-13-2013, 05:53 PM
There's no way this guy isn't JDUBBs, but either way you guys just keep getting sucked into arguing with them both. There's that whole saying, "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results"...

It is, and he has a woody I can see from my back deck

GopherBigGuy911
03-13-2013, 05:57 PM
There's no way this guy isn't JDUBBs, but either way you guys just keep getting sucked into arguing with them both. There's that whole saying, "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results"...
Does anyone know who JWUBBS really is?