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Osorojo
03-13-2013, 09:54 AM
Could we get a more detailed explanation of how political boundaries (state lines) determine hockey talent and authenticate superior hockey programs? For example, suppose someone moves to Minnesota from another state or even another country BEFORE he is old enough to play or coach college hockey. Does his eligibility for the exalted status of "Minnesota hockey player" (or coach) depend upon his age at the time of the move, or upon the state or country he moved from? Suppose that player (coach) was conceived in a state or country other than Minnesota - even Wisconsin. Would that disqualify him from membership in the elite, exclusive, most important hockey program/ hockey state? Is anyone qualified and empowered to make these critical determinations based upon imaginary lines drawn by partisan politicians?

Back2BackU-MnPride2002
03-13-2013, 11:01 AM
Looks like we've found jdubbs new username. Or maybe this is his mom on the computer upstairs.


Or maybe neither. Just because I agree with JDUBBS on this one issue doesn't mean I have to be him. MOST Gopher fans agree with JDUBBS, but they just try to distance themselves from him because of what the majority of non-Gopher fans think of him. He rubs them all the wrong way and so they've basically chosen not to like him as well. In fact many Gopher fans are very against him, but its NOT because they disagree with what he says, its because they don't like how or why or when or how often he says what he says.


But I can assure you I am not JDUBBS, or his mother, or his friend in real life or related to him in any way. Although I don't know for sure what every single one of my relatives does with their free time, so who knows?! But as far as I know none of my relatives are rabid gopher fans.


I've been at this forum in the past, but I come in for one winter, then take 5-6 off, then come in for another full winter, then take another 5-6 years off, so I am not up to speed with anything that has gone on between JDUBBS and everyone else in the distant past.

But from what I see in the present, he tries to be respectful of other programs and posters, and people show him nothing but disrespect, and yet he does not retaliate in a childish manner, instead he just keeps sticking to his ideas and theories and opinions and it drives everyone crazy and I personally think its hilarious how far people go to try to use character assassination to kill off a messanger whose message they don't like.

Maybe he deserves all the crap he gets from things he's done or said in the past? I don't know, I just came back in here earlier this season and have only recently started to spend more time in here, so all I see is his most recent posts here. And I've seen posts of his at another site where everyone is a Gopher fan, and guess what, he seems to get along there with everyone just fine, from what I can tell.

Back2BackU-MnPride2002
03-13-2013, 11:03 AM
I dunno - does JDUBBS negrep? 'Cause this new clown does.


Why am I a clown? Serious? So many hateful people out in the world. I am a good and righteous person, and because I have an opinion you don't like, you insult me?

What does that say about your character?

Shirtless Guy
03-13-2013, 11:10 AM
Why am I a clown? Serious? So many hateful people out in the world. I am a good and righteous person, and because I have an opinion you don't like, you insult me?

What does that say about your character?You don't go around neg repping people. That will get you labeled as a clown. We all get jdubbs point. Minnesota does deserve credit for helping build local talent and building around homegrown players but that is no way to truly judge which program has had more success. These discussions happen in a vacuum and the birth place of players shouldn't come into play for this discussion. I have no problem with Minnesota's choice to build with Minnesota kids. I love watching MNHS hockey and am extremely glad that the quality is there and I know its there because Minnesota recruits Minnesota and also because Minnesota helps programs like BSU, UMD, SCSU and MSUM. The fact that Minnesota can support 5 DI teams is amazing and has alot to do with Mariucci and Herb Brooks. All the rest of us are trying to say is that qualitatively it doesn't matter and isn't germane to NCAA Program rankings.

PS a righteous person doesn't go around neg repping people saying, "Some ppl need the truth beaten into their brains"

Back2BackU-MnPride2002
03-13-2013, 11:20 AM
Could we get a more detailed explanation of how political boundaries (state lines) determine hockey talent and authenticate superior hockey programs? For example, suppose someone moves to Minnesota from another state or even another country BEFORE he is old enough to play or coach college hockey. Does his eligibility for the exalted status of "Minnesota hockey player" (or coach) depend upon his age at the time of the move, or upon the state or country he moved from? Suppose that player (coach) was conceived in a state or country other than Minnesota - even Wisconsin. Would that disqualify him from membership in the elite, exclusive, most important hockey program/ hockey state? Is anyone qualified and empowered to make these critical determinations based upon imaginary lines drawn by partisan politicians?



LOL, wow dude, you really took offense to my stating my opinions, eh?


Where are you from? I'm sure there is something about where you are from that the locals are proud of. Ever see a sign driving into a town where the sign says, "blankville - home of famous person X" lol

Nothing wrong with people being proud of their local high school and that school's success. Nothing wrong with someone being proud of their local university and its success in whatever. Nothing wrong with a state being proud of something either.

Minnesota SUCKS when it comes to producing future football superstars. Why is that? There are lots of reasons. And those reasons CAN be defined and analyzed and opined about.

Minnesota KICKS *** when it comes to producing future hockey superstars. Why is that? There are lots of reasons. And those reasons CAN be defined and analyzed and opined about.


Another state could follow Minnesota's lead and do just what we've done, with hockey or another sport. I'm not trying to stop them, and I'd celebrate their accomplishments when they accomplish them.


PSU is linebacker U, isn't it? Pennsylvanians are VERY proud of their production of superstar football talent over the years. Do I fault them for this pride? No, I recognize what Pennsylvania does and as a big football fan, I'm jealous. Minnesota USED to produce the best football players, but then WWII rolled around and the world changed, and the growth of hockey in Minnesota has taken away athletes that otherwise might have excelled in other sports.



All of what I've said makes sense and can basically be shown to be accurate by looking at the facts, but because what I post isn't praising YOU or YOUR school or YOUR state, you take offense?! WOW.


Seriously, tell me where you are from and I probably can pimp your state or school about something. I'm not just a Gopher homer. I like college sports as a whole and sports in general. But you don't want to read that or acknowledge that, you'd much rather have someone to be the enemy, the bad guy, while JDUBBS is suspended. You are hilarious man.



but otherwise, the AGE of a person doesn't matter as much as what the person experiences before coming to Minnesota and what they experience after coming to Minnesota. Minnesota takes it's hockey seriously, and someone moving here from out of state, given enough time and exposure to what goes on in Minnesota regarding hockey, can benefit from it. But there are people who are successful at hockey from all over the country and the world. Depends on how seriously they take the sport as a person.

Just being from Minnesota doesn't guarantee a person ANYTHING if they don't take advantage of what Minnesota has to offer them as a potential hockey player. Some black dude from Alabama, if he chooses to be the next superstar hockey player, could excel in the sport beyond many Minnesotans if he and his family take the sport seriously and do what is needed for him to develop his talents. Then he could go to Alabama-Huntsville and then the NHL and NEVER come near Minnesota, except the beat the crap out of WCHA teams and the Wild.


What I'm saying makes sense, but you don't want to discuss it, you just want to bash me, I'm guessing.

Back2BackU-MnPride2002
03-13-2013, 11:33 AM
PS a righteous person doesn't go around neg repping people saying, "Some ppl need the truth beaten into their brains"


The truth shall set you free. I believe what I said was true, some people are very resistant to the truth. When I was in the army and had people trying to convince me of something important that would change my life forever, it took them basically, beating that truth into my brain for it to take hold. There were 2 guys working on my brain, trying to convince of something. The one guy was all nice about it, the other guy got in my face about it, and guess what, the nice guy was easy to ignore, but the guy who got in my face, ****ed me off so bad. And then I finally figured out why he ****ed me off, it was because he was right and I wouldn't have recognized that fact had he ***** footed around like the other guy.

So maybe my past has made me a little rough around the edges, so that I'll say something like" some ppl need the truth beaten into their brains". But its basically a true statement and I stand by that statement.




As for neg repping you, I'm sorry, is that something really serious?! I tried repping someone I had already repped apparently and was "encouraged" to spread around my repping. And I saw some poster say the same thing, that he had to spread some rep. So honestly, I only did it when I felt it was appropriate.

But I am a fairly righteous man, and stand by all that I've ever posted and said. Even when what I posted or said was something sinful. Because I am human and I'll admit to making mistakes, and will make an effort to apologize when I do. If my neg repping you was more serious of the thing that I was led to believe it would be, then I apologize.

But I have a right to my opinion, and if I back up my opinion with facts, then instead of calling me a clown, why not refute my opinions with facts?

LynahFan
03-13-2013, 11:37 AM
The truth shall set you free. I believe what I said was true, some people are very resistant to the truth. Well, you neg repped me for stating something that is absolutely true: that UMinn's recruiting policy doesn't matter to me. You seem to be very resistant to THAT truth. I guess some truths are more equal than others, eh?

Osorojo
03-13-2013, 11:37 AM
You don't go around neg repping people. That will get you labeled as a clown. We all get jdubbs point. Minnesota does deserve credit for helping build local talent and building around homegrown players but that is no way to truly judge which program has had more success. These discussions happen in a vacuum and the birth place of players shouldn't come into play for this discussion. I have no problem with Minnesota's choice to build with Minnesota kids. I love watching MNHS hockey and am extremely glad that the quality is there and I know its there because Minnesota recruits Minnesota and also because Minnesota helps programs like BSU, UMD, SCSU and MSUM. The fact that Minnesota can support 5 DI teams is amazing and has alot to do with Mariucci and Herb Brooks. All the rest of us are trying to say is that qualitatively it doesn't matter and isn't germane to NCAA Program rankings.

PS a righteous person doesn't go around neg repping people saying, "Some ppl need the truth beaten into their brains"

"Homegrown" indisputably DOES introduce "birth place" into this discussion - unless you answer questions about immigrants and conception location. In fact this whole shebang revolves around birthplace and invisible lines drawn by partisan politicians.

Dirty
03-13-2013, 11:44 AM
I figured it out! JDubbs is a Mogwai. He took a shower and now we have Back2BackU-MnPride2002. Sure they are both all cute and fuzzy now but everyone needs to stop responding to them, especially after midnight!, or they'll turn into some green reptile type thingy.

Shirtless Guy
03-13-2013, 11:45 AM
"Homegrown" indisputably DOES introduce "birth place" into this discussion - unless you answer questions about immigrants and conception location. In fact this whole shebang revolves around birthplace and invisible lines drawn by partisan politicians.If they are allowed to play NCAA, where the player is from should have no effect on how we rank programs.

LynahFan
03-13-2013, 11:46 AM
If they are allowed to play NCAA, where the player is from should have no effect on how we rank programs.Exactly.

(Psst - Oso, we're on your side for once. Don't mess it up!)

Back2BackU-MnPride2002
03-13-2013, 11:47 AM
All the rest of us are trying to say is that qualitatively it doesn't matter and isn't germane to NCAA Program rankings.



Hey Shirtless guy --


I actually agree that all that stuff is separate from the discussion of NCAA program rankings.

And proof that I am not JDUBBS is that I would have loved to have been in here when he was asking why people love to try to quantify success as they do, because I would have told him simply that people are different, some people hate ratings and rankings and stats and stuff like that, other people love that stuff. To rag on people who like that stuff is ridiculous, and for that reason, JDUBBS deserved some of the sh1t he was getting from people.

And in my opinion, JDUBBS has become what he has become because childish and immature and idiotic and argumentative posters have made him what he is. Just my guess but if people would have simply ignored him, he would have gotten bored and left. Said his piece and that would have been it for the most part. Sure, he may have kept trying to bring it up too often, but attacking him just encourages him and probably gives him motivation to try harder.


I've got no problem with ranking teams without including other subjective factors like "tradition". As far as I am concerned JDUBBS should start his own thread ranking teams according to subject traditions or whatever, and then he can sit in that thread all by himself, or those who like picking on him can go there and have at him, and then he'd be over there and not here.


And I'm sorry for buying into the discussion that he started here, but I just wanted to address Mile High Guy, the way I thought JDUBBS should have, but didn't. JDUBBS can be an idiot sometimes as far as I'm concerned. I agree with some of the things he says, and kind of wish I did know him so that I could have told given him advice because it seems he doesn't take any of the advice people here give him. I'm guessing this thing between him and the rest of the forum has developed over years, so it sucks that I don't know all the details and simply because I agree with some of his ideas I get labeled as him or his mother or some other bullsh1t.

burd
03-13-2013, 11:52 AM
Mile High Hockey ---

You are so wrong. It is the "general" philosophy of UMn that if a coach can recruit mostly from the state of MN & in so doing, become successful, the university is MORE pleased than if the coach had recruited mostly from out of state & been equally successful.

I wouldn't even doubt it if "in general", the University holds its coaches to a lower standard when they see that the coach is making an effort to give Minnesota kids opportunities to play at the next level. Evidence of this "general" policy can be seen in every single sport at UMn as far as I can tell. W's Soccer, W's hockey, Ms & Ws CC, VB, Ms & Ws BB, Wr, fb, softball, baseball, Ms & Ws Golf, etc..

Is it tolerated when a coach starts to recruit outside of the state of MN?! Yes, sure it is, BUT, it is expected of that coach to then show a measureable amount of improvement on the field or court because of this outside talent being brought in.

Examples of this are the Australians & English golfers, the Brazilian VB player, the Finnish women's hockey player, the Austrian mens hockey player. It's also deemed quite acceptable to bring in recruits from Wisconsin, Iowa and the Dakotas, too.


But the one thing ALL of those out-state and foreign recruits had in common? They were beyond good, they were extraordinary athletes AND, they were ALWAYS in the minority on the roster. There were always more Minnesotans on every one of those teams than players from outside of MN combined.


The other thing about coaches & how they recruit at UMn. They do it because its the best thing for the state and program at the same time. Bringing in the BEST players from the Dakotas & Wisc to play hockey for us, keeps those players from playing for our conf opponents, and makes us good enough that other MN superstars grow up wanting nothing more than to be Gophers when they grow up.

Bringing in a few select superstar wrestlers from Iowa especially and also other parts of the country, makes UMn one of the best programs in the country, for the young wrestlers growing up in MN to strive to want to be a part of. And wrestling in the state of MN thrives, more than in most other states, in part because of the "general" philosophy of UMn & ALL of its coaches.


You make it sound like its only the coaches philosophy?! Well, in part that is true, but then its obviously the Universities policy to ONLY hire coaches who have similar philosophies to that of Mariucci.


You claim that if some coach came in and starting recruiting only Canadians, that they wouldn't get fired!?!

You are wrong!!!! They'd get fired first chance the school found to do so.

Minnesotans as a people, the whole state, "in general", likes seeing its local boys and gals stay home. Their families like their children to stay close to home. Their friends like it. Their fans like it. The fans of ALL Gopher sports teams like it and PREFER it, as long as it doesn't handicap the team too much.

And the more money involved in the sport, like with cbb and cfb, the more lax the University and the public and fans are when it comes to keeping to that "general" policy. More so with fb, because its gotten virtually impossible to field a competitive team with only MN players. The same is not so true with basketball, and never has been true with hockey.

Which leads me to answer your 2nd question.











Your idea that if you are going to praise a University for doing well under a coach's vision, and give that University extra credit, then you should also punish that University and deduct extra points when they do not meet standards is actually fine, I suppose?! And I am sure I know exactly what you are trying to claim, that Woog followed that philosophy and failed, so Lucia had to change the policy and then he succeeded, and that's WRONG, it is not accurate, its bullsh1t.


Woog did not fail. In many ways Woog was very successful. He took the Gophers to 4 straight FFs. And people simply were spoiled by the success of Broten, and felt finishing 2nd wasn't good enough. He missed the FF for 4 years straight before returning in back to back seasons, only to drop off again. And instead of trying to figure out what the complex issues might have been that all seemed to conspire against Woog to prevent his teams from winning a Natl Title, they lazily pointed at his policy of only recruiting Minnesotans as the problem. So Lucia brought in one North Dakotan, and an Austrian, and one more from out of state I think, that all were big factors in helping his win those 2 Back to Back Natl Titles.

Those 2 titles bought him a lot of grace from Gopher fans when HIS new philosophy, which was STILL to recruit primarily Minnesotans, backfired and he recruited SO INCREDIBLY WELL, that we suffered what the bluebloods in cbb suffer from, players coming in and doing the one and done thing, before they really even contribute in a significant way. I think that some of those guys left just a little too early. Each of them probably could have be well served to play one more year, but then again, most of them are doing well and making millions now in the NHL. But had he come up short those 2 seasons, and they were close games, he would have felt a lot more heat during those years the Gophers slumped.


See, the issue with Woog was complicated. There were plenty of good enough Minnesota boys that could have come to Minnesota who didn't for whatever reason, and had those players come, we probably would have had just as good a team, made up completely of Minnesotans. But when local boys choose to go out east, or up to UND or to UMD for whatever reason, maybe to get away from the parents or for an adventure or who knows, maybe their high school coach got snubbed by the Gophers and directs all his players away from Minnesota? But all Lucia did basically, was bring in a few out-staters to make up for the top notch in staters that went elsewhere. Once he got a couple of those outsiders to combine with a core of great upperclassmen players that WOOG had recruited & won those 2 titles, then he didn't have a problem getting all the top MN players wanting to come here, but you can only take so many, and if you go after these 3 first, these other 2 feel miffed and go somewhere else out of spite maybe, and maybe one of those end up being better than one of the 3 you went after first? And as Lucia found out, when you become so popular that you get the absolute best wanting to come here, and then they leave after just 1 or 2 ssns before even helping you to win a Natl Title first, then you are left scrambling to find replacements & it throws everything off.

Now we've recovered, we've got some young good guys who weren't quite ready to bail after last year, and hopefully they will get us a title this year before they bolt, and more than we'd like just might? If they don't leave, we'll be UBER good next year. But eventually these great players will leave, and where will Lucia look first to replace the players leaving?

He'll look for the best local talent, first. He'll get the best locals to fill our needs, and then look elsewhere if there is more space available, except of course when that superstar is found then you hope to get them and surround them with the best local talent.


Another thing about Woog, he was having to deal with in-state schools moving up to Div 1 and recruiting against him as well, which wasn't much of an issue for Mariucci or Broten. In fact, Broten was one of the people who really helped boost SCSU up to Div 1.




So go ahead and TRY to deduct points or punish UMn for its failures, but there are none really. Lucia's only made it to 4 FFs in his 12 years of coaching at UMn. Woog made it to 4 FFs in a row & had gotten UMn to its 6th FF in just his 10th or 11th year or something like that? So if Lucia gets UMn to the FF this year, he'll still be behind Woog in that dept, but yes, of course, Lucia's got those 2 Titles. Basically both coaches started out with a bang, and kind of had a hard time maintaining their momentum. Woog suffered also from players leaving for the NHL which was becoming more & more of an issue throughout his time at UMn.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Woog was super incredible the best ever, he had flaws and he made some mistakes that probably cost him a few more FFs and some Titles. Lucia has some flaws as well and has made some mistakes, too.



My guess is that since your school was one of the WORST when it came to recruiting overaged Canadians, that you have THAT as your motivation for trying to prove JDUBBS comments and ideas to be wrong. If he is right, then what does that say about your school? Eh?!

Come again?

Back2BackU-MnPride2002
03-13-2013, 12:26 PM
The truth shall set you free. I believe what I said was true, some people are very resistant to the truth.
Well, you neg repped me for stating something that is absolutely true: that UMinn's recruiting policy doesn't matter to me. You seem to be very resistant to THAT truth. I guess some truths are more equal than others, eh?



Well, that's fine, maybe I shouldn't have neg repped you, and honestly, I'm new to all this rep bullsh1t. All I know is I tried repping someone and was encouraged to spread some more rep before I could so that is what I tried to do, and well, I didn't have any reason to give you a good rep, so I figured you put your opinion out there, and were obviously trying to make some sort of a statement by doing so, and I thought it was a statement deserving to be neg repped. That was before I knew it was a horrible thing to be neg repped. At the time I thought it was better than cramming the thread up with responses to each and every post I wanted to make a comment about. Now I know better and will be far more careful who I neg rep. I promise. And again, I'm sorry if it did you any harm. That was never my intent.


As for your statement, I respect that you don't care about UMn's recruiting policy, that it doesn't matter to you. But I find that to be an odd thing. College hockey might not even be around anymore if it wasn't for what Minnesota and other schools like BC/BU & Michigan did for the sport.

Before Minnesota started up women's hockey, it wasn't even an NCAA sanctioned sport. And had Minnesota not pushed forward to start up their program then other western schools may not have started up either. Women's high school hockey in Minnesota may not have grown as quickly as it has, and women's hockey might still be an unsanctioned non-NCAA sport?


Had Minnesota chosen to recruit older Russians or Europeans in response to other schools recruiting Canadians, back when Mariucci was coach, it may have opened up a floodgate of NON-Americans coming into America and getting free educations from American universities, so that they could play hockey for our schools, and then 1980 Miracle on Ice may not have happened, and who knows what would have become of college hockey? With the onset of Title IX, and no support from USA Hockey, colleges may have chosen to drop hockey, an expensive sport. And we might still be limited to only 8 teams getting into the tourney, or maybe we would have been forced to go back to 4 teams. WOW, wouldn't that be awesome. 4 teams full of players whose names we have a hard time pronouncing and who we can't understand when being interviewed.


And NO 1980 Miracle on Ice. No graphs showing how American College players make up close to 1/3rd of the growing and flourishing NHL.



As an American, if I heard that some Utah college recruited only Americans to be on their ski team, and because of their commitment to this policy, helped to grow the sport of skiing in America which later led to America winning only its 2nd Gold Medal in skiing in all of history, well, I'd be very impressed with that school and thankful that they made that commitment.



Also, a lot of Americans don't like the idea of outsourcing, going out of the country to produce products when those products could be produced here in America, giving American's jobs, and helping the American economy. But its just sports, right?! As a taxpayer, and seeing as many Universities are partially funded by tax dollars, I want my kid to have a shot at getting that scholarship to play for Minnesota, not some Canadian or European.

The do anything to win mentality is part of why many people have lost interest in sports.

Back2BackU-MnPride2002
03-13-2013, 12:30 PM
I figured it out! JDubbs is a Mogwai. He took a shower and now we have Back2BackU-MnPride2002. Sure they are both all cute and fuzzy now but everyone needs to stop responding to them, especially after midnight!, or they'll turn into some green reptile type thingy.



Nice one Dirty. Very clever and even being the one who is partially being made fun of, I can say its funny.

Back2BackU-MnPride2002
03-13-2013, 12:44 PM
I've got an idea.


Lets get back to talking about "NCAA era Program rankings" based on accomplishments only.



I responded to Mile High Guy, and only did so in response to questions he claims he asked and was not getting anwers to, so I attempted to answer his questions.

And while perusing the thread I decided to try out this rep thing that I really didn't understand, apparently? My first rep was positive and when I tried repping the same person later, was told I couldn't until I spread more rep or something like that, and I remembered reading some poster post something about needing to spread more rep, so it just seemed like it wasn't a big deal. But apparently it was. For anyone I neg repped, I'm sorry. Didn't know it was against the unwritten rules to neg rep someone, or that it was such a big deal. Apparently it is, and I'll be much more careful in the future.

So question? I don't want to derail this topic again, so where can I go to find out more about this rep thing, the rules, and all of that?

UncleRay
03-13-2013, 12:50 PM
Could we get a more detailed explanation of how political boundaries (state lines) determine hockey talent and authenticate superior hockey programs? For example, suppose someone moves to Minnesota from another state or even another country BEFORE he is old enough to play or coach college hockey. Does his eligibility for the exalted status of "Minnesota hockey player" (or coach) depend upon his age at the time of the move, or upon the state or country he moved from? Suppose that player (coach) was conceived in a state or country other than Minnesota - even Wisconsin. Would that disqualify him from membership in the elite, exclusive, most important hockey program/ hockey state? Is anyone qualified and empowered to make these critical determinations based upon imaginary lines drawn by partisan politicians?That s a great question. Although I was born in Maine, to parents who lived and worked in Maine, I am often not considered a true Mainer by some since my parents are both "from away." The reasoning: "If the cat had kittens in the oven, you wouldn't call 'em biscuits, would you?"

Gurtholfin
03-13-2013, 12:51 PM
So question? I don't want to derail this topic again, so where can I go to find out more about this rep thing, the rules, and all of that?


Experience is the best teacher. Did you learn?

Gurtholfin
03-13-2013, 12:53 PM
But I have a right to my opinion, and if I back up my opinion with facts, then instead of calling me a clown, why not refute my opinions with facts?


I know this isn't Dubbie, but this line causes me some pause...

Gurtholfin
03-13-2013, 12:54 PM
Come again?


I was gonna ask for Cliffs Notes but then remembered that I really don't care.